# Bridge: 7 No Trumps baby! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 9, 2016, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229 "2016-08-09T09:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/641 "2018-05-09T07:56:19Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > So, take it relatively easy - how about 3H, jumping to show strength and changing suit to force partner to bid again. 3H normally shows an invitational hand, so not what you want with this mountain as it is non-forcing. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/642 "2018-05-09T08:09:51Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > With 9 tricks in your hand, you might raise 6H to 7H. Partner must have a very big hand to bid slam holding no trump honours and 4 hearts at most. But it is tough to bid a grand in a club game when you have not established that you hold all the key cards. Regardless of how good or bad the prior bids were, surely the 7H bid is easy. Can you imagine partner jumping to 6H with only two Aces and no help for hearts? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/643 "2018-05-09T08:45:15Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > 3H normally shows an invitational hand, so not what you want with this mountain as it is non-forcing. Thanks. I was thinking that after the likely 3S response, I can then bid 4NT (Blackwood) immediately - partner will think we are going for a slam in spades, but I know a slam in hearts is bound to be on given partner’s points. So whatever partner responds, I can bid 5H, 6H, or (as would happen once he shows 3 Aces) 7N. Or do you think partner would take 6H into 6S? ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/644 "2018-05-09T08:57:38Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > Thanks. I was thinking that after the likely 3S response, I can then bid 4NT (Blackwood) immediately - partner will think we are going for a slam in spades, but I know a slam in hearts is bound to be on given partner’s points. So whatever partner responds, I can bid 5H, 6H, or (as would happen once he shows 3 Aces) 7N. Or do you think partner would take 6H into 6S? You can play Lebensohl in this situation which allows you to discriminate between weak, invitational, and game force hands. Useful convention to play as it applies to a number of situations, by far the most important being when opps interfere over your 1NT. It is essential to have some system here (doesn’t have to be Lebensohl, there are a few different ones). Wouldn’t say it was as essential to have Leb over wk2 doubled (I’ve read some folk really dislike playing it here), but it saves on memory strain to play the same convention across a number of sequences. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/645 "2018-05-09T09:24:40Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > You can play Lebensohl in this situation which allows you to discriminate between weak, invitational, and game force hands. > Useful convention to play as it applies to a number of situations, by far the most important being when opps interfere over your 1NT. It is essential to have some system here (doesn’t have to be Lebensohl, there are a few different ones). > > Wouldn’t say it was as essential to have Leb over wk2 doubled (I’ve read some folk really dislike playing it here), but it saves on memory strain to play the same convention across a number of sequences. Thanks, I’ll look that up. I was just trying to come up with a ‘kitchen bridge’ way to bid this, based on Acol but with little knowledge and very few conventions. > [@merrick](#): > > It’s a nice bidding problem - after 2D - Dbl - P - 3D (game force), doubler can see a slam with his rock-crusher, but I’m still not sure how you get to seven after 3S - 4H. > 4S could be passed, 4NT agrees Hearts (and doubler doesn’t know partner’s suit is solid), 5S uses all the bidding space. > Maybe make up a 5C bid planning to go 6NT over partner’s 6C? But then after 6H you still only get to 6NT. Coming back to this, I was wondering earlier whether cue bidding could work (given RKCB may not be helpful). On that theory, we have [2D] - Dbl - 3D - 3S - 4H, then doubler bids 5C to show first-round control in clubs, 5H (first round control in hearts), 5S, 6C (second round control in clubs) and now doubler knows he can make 6S but is worried about losing the king of diamonds. So he bids 6H to show second round control in hearts (irrelevant to partner but he doesn’t know that). Quartz’s seat, holding Kd, can then bid 7N as there are no more losers by that point - I think. Or am I guilty of using perfect information in this scenario? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/646 "2018-05-09T12:18:17Z")
In your sequence, nobody has demonstrated first-round control of diamonds so I would pass after 6H. It’s also difficult to determine if 5C is a cue bid or telling me that partner is a massive 2-suiter in spades and clubs, and 5H is a reversion to the trup suit which says ‘no more controls’. After a bid of 5S I’m going to be bidding 6H, at which point partner should raise to 7. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/647 "2018-05-09T12:34:13Z")
> [@merrick](#): > > It’s one of those hands where old-style Blackwood works better than RKCB. > > After [2D] - Dble - 3D, 3S - 4NT, the player in **Quartz’s** position can then set the contract at 7NT, 6H or 5H depending on the number of Aces opposite. But if partner is counting KS as an Ace, you’re on a guess unless he shows all four. That’s a good point. Maybe an immediate 4NT over the double should be Blackwood - it cannot be RKCB. But partner might take it as showing both minors. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/648 "2018-05-09T12:38:40Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > You can play Lebensohl in this situation which allows you to discriminate between weak, invitational, and game force hands. > > Useful convention to play as it applies to a number of situations, by far the most important being when opps interfere over your 1NT. It is essential to have some system here (doesn’t have to be Lebensohl, there are a few different ones). > > Wouldn’t say it was as essential to have Leb over wk2 doubled (I’ve read some folk really dislike playing it here), but it saves on memory strain to play the same convention across a number of sequences. I play Leb over weak 2H/S doubled but not 2D. Over 2DX you can bid either major at the two-level with a weak hand so I prefer to have a natural 2NT available. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/649 "2018-05-09T12:52:54Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > In your sequence, nobody has demonstrated first-round control of diamonds so I would pass after 6H. It’s also difficult to determine if 5C is a cue bid or telling me that partner is a massive 2-suiter in spades and clubs, and 5H is a reversion to the trup suit which says ‘no more controls’. After a bid of 5S I’m going to be bidding 6H, at which point partner should raise to 7. Thank you - thought it was probably too good to be true. ---
**Author:** ![merrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@merrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/650 "2018-05-09T18:37:46Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Not if partner held that particular big hand. You would rapidly get to 6D via RKCB and it is an excellent contract. I think you mean 5D, as I wouldn’t call 6D on S:Jx H:xx D:Txxxxxx C:Kxx (or similar) opposite S:AKQxx H:x D:AQxx C:AQJ an excellent contract. But most people would stop in 5D after RKCB showed they were off 2 key-cards and that _is_ a good contract. But can you keep out of 5D (or just as much fun for the peanut gallery, 3NT) if partner has something like S:AKxx H:Axx D:Qx C:AQxx ? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/651 "2018-05-09T20:23:25Z")
> [@merrick](#): > > I think you mean 5D, as I wouldn’t call 6D on S:Jx H:xx D:Txxxxxx C:Kxx (or similar) opposite S:AKQxx H:x D:AQxx C:AQJ an excellent contract. But most people would stop in 5D after RKCB showed they were off 2 key-cards and that _is_ a good contract. > > But can you keep out of 5D (or just as much fun for the peanut gallery, 3NT) if partner has something like S:AKxx H:Axx D:Qx C:AQxx ? Yes, I mean 5D. I don’t advocate opening 2D on the actual hand, for the reasons you give. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/652 "2018-05-10T02:31:41Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Regardless of how good or bad the prior bids were, surely the 7H bid is easy. Can you imagine partner jumping to 6H with only two Aces and no help for hearts? I see everyone in this thread also has me set to Ignore. :o Has anyone displayed the partner’s hand which bids 6H but doesn’t make a Grand? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/653 "2018-05-10T05:01:23Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I see everyone in this thread also has me set to Ignore. :o Has anyone displayed the partner’s hand which bids 6H but doesn’t make a Grand? Possibly AKQJ XXXX AQ KQJ. He wants to be in 6 but not 7 opposite xxx AKxxx x ATxx. However, he should bid RKCB and get to 7 when partner also has QH. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/654 "2018-05-10T06:47:49Z")
You’ve demonstrated a mathematical possibility. Care to estimate the probability? How about a hand where the opponents have more than zero trumps? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/655 "2018-05-10T08:55:29Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I see everyone in this thread also has me set to Ignore. :o Has anyone displayed the partner’s hand which bids 6H but doesn’t make a Grand? Singleton low diamond. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/656 "2018-05-10T10:05:03Z")
Does the jump to 4H promise a solid suit? What do you bid with x KQJxxxxx Kx xx ? 3H only?? Note, btw, that even with the example 6H bid with only two aces, you have 15 top tricks if the opening leader lacks AC and doesn’t lead club. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/657 "2018-05-10T14:55:19Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > You’ve demonstrated a mathematical possibility. Care to estimate the probability? How about a hand where the opponents have more than zero trumps? As I have posted previously, I don’t think the big hand should raise hearts without heart support. That is why I gave him 4. It could possibly be 3, though, so convert the 4th heart to any other suit for a bunch more possibilities where 6H is good and 7H bad. And more hands without black jacks. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/658 "2018-05-10T14:59:24Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Does the jump to 4H promise a solid suit? What do you bid with > > x KQJxxxxx Kx xx > > ? 3H only?? Note, btw, that even with the example 6H bid with only two aces, you have 15 top tricks if the opening leader lacks AC and doesn’t lead club. The 4H bid does not promise any quality of heart suit. The double ostensibly promises hearts or big hand, so even xxxxx is good enough. That is not actually possible on this hand as there are not enough points missing for partner to have a 4H bid without some reasonable holding in the suit. I would bid 4H with the example you give. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/659 "2018-05-11T02:55:02Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > The 4H bid does not promise any quality of heart suit. The double ostensibly promises hearts or big hand, so even xxxxx is good enough. That is not actually possible on this hand as there are not enough points missing for partner to have a 4H bid without some reasonable holding in the suit. > > I would bid 4H with the example you give. We seem to be mostly in agreement, including the fact that South could exchange his AH (or even more) for East’s small club and still bid 4H. I just don’t understand how you can agree with all this, yet avoid reaching the conclusion that _IF_ partner can bid 6H _THEN_ bidding Grand is the percentage move here. Note that, in the event, you had Seventeen (with an S!) top tricks. (But, FWIW, my “regular partner” also passed 6H when I presented this problem to him.) ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2018, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/660 "2018-05-11T04:12:24Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > We seem to be mostly in agreement, including the fact that South could exchange his AH (or even more) for East’s small club and still bid 4H. > > I just don’t understand how you can agree with all this, yet avoid reaching the conclusion that _IF_ partner can bid 6H _THEN_ bidding Grand is the percentage move here. Note that, in the event, you had Seventeen (with an S!) top tricks. (But, FWIW, my “regular partner” also passed 6H when I presented this problem to him.) My original comment to Quartz was that he might bid the grand but it is tough to do so in a club game without knowing if you have all the keycards. I expect 7 to make more often than not. But if 7 goes down, you will get a bottom. Bidding a making slam is rarely a bad board. Hence by bidding a grand, you are usually risking a good score for just a few more matchpoints. That is why my rule of thumb is not to bid 7 at the club unless I can count 13 tricks and know we are not missing any key cards. In a higher-level tournament I would be more likely to bid 7. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229.md?page=34)