# Bridge: 7 No Trumps baby! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 9, 2016, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229 "2016-08-09T09:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/61 "2016-09-02T08:37:31Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > - partner knows you have at least 5 hearts. We play 2 over 1, so the 1H opener guarantees at least 5 (except occasionally 3rd in hand). As I said, we play differently over here: 1H shows 4+, not 5+. > [@](#): > > Partner had QJxx Axxx x AQxx. It actually makes 7 when diamonds break 4-3 and the suit can be ruffed good. Plus trumps are not 3-0. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/62 "2016-09-02T11:15:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As I said, we play differently over here: 1H shows 4+, not 5+. You might want to watch the way the wind is blowing - 4 card majors are nowhere near universal. All three England pairs in the upcoming World Mind Games play 5 card majors - ACOL seems to be losing favor at the highest levels. Okay, I know you are in Scotland but I do not know the Scottish team. > [@](#): > > Plus trumps are not 3-0. True. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/63 "2016-09-02T14:25:49Z")
Not heard of a top pair playing Acol for a while - think it’s dead and buried for team play at those levels - too weak a system for slam bidding. It’s decent at pairs (matchpoints), although again I doubt many experts play it, where you can be quite aggressive low in the auction but you’re not stretching for games or slams. I learned using Acol and now play 2/1 - wouldn’t go back (although I do like the weak NT). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/64 "2016-09-02T17:15:35Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > You might want to watch the way the wind is blowing - 4 card majors are nowhere near universal. I’m actually well aware of that. I used to play Better Minor myself, but I’m currently playing with random partners and we all know ACOL, because that is what is taught here. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/65 "2016-10-11T03:55:53Z")
Fun hand from the club tonight: * * * Both sides vulnerable. This is how, I think, the bidding \*should \*have gone: Partner opens pass. RHO bids 4 hearts! You: S: A, Q, xxx H: void D: A, K, xx C: A xxx We have takeout double marked through 4D only. What do you bid? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/66 "2016-10-11T07:54:27Z")
Double for takeout and hope that partner understands. An alternative would be 4NT, but that removes the possibility of 4S. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/67 "2016-10-11T08:19:05Z")
Here’s one from last night which I got wrong Partner holds S: Kx H: AQTxx D: KQT C: AKJ or AKQ I hold S: QJTxx H: Kxx D: AJx C: xx Partner opened 2H (strong), I responded 2S, he then rebid 2NT, and I was somewhat flummoxed by this and bid 4H. He made 11 tricks, letting an opponent get a ruff. I’m thinking that my partner should have opened 2C or 2NT, not 2H as 2H indicates an unbalanced hand. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/68 "2016-10-11T16:39:36Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > Fun hand from the club tonight: > > * * * > > Both sides vulnerable. > > This is how, I think, the bidding \*should \*have gone: > > Partner opens pass. > > RHO bids 4 hearts! > > You: > > S: A, Q, xxx > H: void > D: A, K, xx > C: A xxx > > We have takeout double marked through 4D only. > > What do you bid? My partner would have left a double in for penalty. So I don’t know what to bid. But here is what really happened: Partner had: S: Kxxx H: x D: Q, J, xxxx C: xx But partner had his heart mixed in with his diamonds! He bid 3 Diamonds to open. RHO bids 4 hearts. I look at my hand and 5 diamonds seems a sure bid with partners supposed 7 Diamonds, so I bid 5 diamonds. The other guys bid 5 hearts. I think one of them must be void in diamonds, so a double is too risky. I bid 6 Diamonds. It is passed out and partner, already apoplectic at my “overbidding” suddenly sees he only has 6 Diamonds in his hand not 7. The hand makes 7 Diamonds cold. A top board for us as most everyone else defended a heart game. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/69 "2016-10-11T16:54:08Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > Fun hand from the club tonight: > > * * * > > Both sides vulnerable. > > This is how, I think, the bidding \*should \*have gone: > > Partner opens pass. > > RHO bids 4 hearts! > > You: > > S: A, Q, xxx > H: void > D: A, K, xx > C: A xxx > > We have takeout double marked through 4D only. > > What do you bid? Agree with Quartz that double is feasible - flexible call. Value-showing, expressing doubt over 4H and keeps spades in the picture. However, there’s a v good chance of it getting passed out - pard knows you have some defense and they prob have a few hearts. Unless RHO is a comedian, a second seat red pre-empt can be very heavy, and taking it one or two off might not net a very good score. We have to find game and I think I’d just go 4S direct here. Worth the risk to try and find the spade fit, which has decent chances of existing given the pre-empt, and our spade suit is not bad. Another issue with doubling is that LHO may further squeeze our space with a 5H call if they have a fit and are very weak. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/70 "2016-10-11T17:01:08Z")
As it is, the opps do make 4 hearts. RHO had 8 hearts, and a void in diamonds. They lose 2 spades and the club ace. A sacrifice of 6 hearts would still work, but opps do not know our hands fit together so well. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/71 "2016-10-11T17:15:39Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Here’s one from last night which I got wrong > > Partner holds > > S: Kx > H: AQTxx > D: KQT > C: AKJ or AKQ > > I hold > > S: QJTxx > H: Kxx > D: AJx > C: xx > > Partner opened 2H (strong), I responded 2S, he then rebid 2NT, and I was somewhat flummoxed by this and bid 4H. He made 11 tricks, letting an opponent get a ruff. I’m thinking that my partner should have opened 2C or 2NT, not 2H as 2H indicates an unbalanced hand. I agree with you that your partner’s hand looks like a 2NT opener (20-22), or 2C if he does have Qc instead of the J (23 HCPs). I assume he intended his rebid of 2NT to show that he was fairly balanced but with H as his longest suit. Unless I thought it would totally confuse the situation, I think I would have attempted a cue bid of 3D over this (as I always play change of suit as 100% forcing for one round - and in this case it would obviously be forcing to game anyway), showing I had a first round control in diamonds but not clubs. Partner can then deduce he has no losers in clubs or diamonds and use Blackwood/Gerber/RKCB (or whatever you have agreed) to find out that you do not have the spade Ace (as he already knows you have the diamond Ace - unless your cue bid was to show a diamond void, which is unlikely) but you do have the heart King. If I were him I think I’d try 6NT, which seems to make comfortably. Any gaps in the above analysis? > [@Biotop](#): > > My partner would have left a double in for penalty. So I don’t know what to bid. But here is what really happened: > > Partner had: > > S: Kxxx > H: x > D: Q, J, xxxx > C: xx > > But partner had his heart mixed in with his diamonds! He bid 3 Diamonds to open. RHO bids 4 hearts. I look at my hand and 5 diamonds seems a sure bid with partners supposed 7 Diamonds, so I bid 5 diamonds. The other guys bid 5 hearts. I think one of them must be void in diamonds, so a double is too risky. I bid 6 Diamonds. It is passed out and partner, already apoplectic at my “overbidding” suddenly sees he only has 6 Diamonds in his hand not 7. > > The hand makes 7 Diamonds cold. A top board for us as most everyone else defended a heart game. Nice when an error leads to a top (and it looks like you bidded well) - I’m sure in my case that would be more than cancelled out by my many other errors that lead to bottoms! ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/72 "2016-10-12T21:15:07Z")
**Biotop** , Most people here play X thru 4H as takeout. Is there some reason why you only play thru 4D? Also, your partner’s vulnerable preempt looks a little light to me, even with 7 diamonds. I only count 5 1/2 tricks. Plus, I hate to preempt with a good major holding and an unpassed partner. Too many times you end up missing a major suit game. Although they do say it’s a bidder’s game. > [@Quartz](#): > > Partner opened 2H (strong), I responded 2S, he then rebid 2NT, and I was somewhat flummoxed by this and bid 4H. He made 11 tricks, letting an opponent get a ruff. I’m thinking that my partner should have opened 2C or 2NT, not 2H as 2H indicates an unbalanced hand. You have a good idea of partner’s strength (if not his shape). Does he know how strong your hand is? (I’m not familiar with strong 2s). Whatever partner opens (and I don’t disagree with 2NT or 2C), I think you need to push for slam. Would you have bid 2S with zero points? 4H by you sounds like a sign-off. Maybe just try 3H and see what partner does next? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/73 "2016-10-12T23:15:52Z")
As I said, I got flummoxed. My mistake. Over an opening bid of 2NT I would have bid 3NT, being 1 point short of values for a 4NT bid. Over 2C I would bid 2S. With zero points it’s legal to pass 2H, but the general negative is 2NT. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/74 "2016-10-12T23:23:14Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > **Biotop** , > Most people here play X thru 4H as takeout. Is there some reason why you only play thru 4D? > Also, your partner’s vulnerable preempt looks a little light to me, even with 7 diamonds. I only count 5 1/2 tricks. Plus, I hate to preempt with a good major holding and an unpassed partner. Too many times you end up missing a major suit game. Although they do say it’s a bidder’s game. I like a style where you’re prepared to pre-empt with a hand containing one flaw - pure weak 2s / 3s are too conservative nowadays IMHO. But draw the line at two flaws - too wild. So Biotop’s partner going 3 first seat red with an outside 4cM plus a (mis-assessed) void is too erratic for me. As ever it’s about knowing what to expect, rather than one approach being right or wrong. If you agree to pre-empt freely that can work. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/75 "2016-10-12T23:34:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As I said, I got flummoxed. My mistake. > > Over an opening bid of 2NT I would have bid 3NT, being 1 point short of values for a 4NT bid. Over 2C I would bid 2S. With zero points it’s legal to pass 2H, but the general negative is 2NT. Your partner’s completely misbid their hand so I wouldn’t say it was your mistake. It probably is wrong to jump to game after making your 2S bid, as that has to be GF or close to, and you’re way too strong to just shut up shop. But what does pard’s 2N rebid really mean in that sequence? It’s hard to interpret and has been made in error really as they chose the wrong opening bid. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/76 "2016-10-13T02:45:25Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > **Biotop** , > Most people here play X thru 4H as takeout. Is there some reason why you only play thru 4D? > Also, your partner’s vulnerable preempt looks a little light to me, even with 7 diamonds. I only count 5 1/2 tricks. Plus, I hate to preempt with a good major holding and an unpassed partner. Too many times you end up missing a major suit game. Although they do say it’s a bidder’s game. We both tend to overbid on distribution. Sometimes it backfires. But there had been a hand earlier where we failed to make the sacrifice bid on shape, so that may have been the catalyst. I don’t know where we got the “thru 4 diamonds” takeout double. Always been on our card. We should probably think it out and change to 4H. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/77 "2016-10-13T03:10:55Z")
On an earlier hand (E/W vulnerable), sitting South I held: S: 8, 6 H: A, Q, T, 8, 6, 4, 3 D: J C: A, 4, 2 The bidding went: E: 1C S (me): 1H W: 1S N: Pass E: 3S S: 4H W: 4S All pass. I wanted to sacrifice 5 H with favorable vulnerability, but I had heard nothing from partner and my hand had a lot of losers. Partner had: S: 9, 3 H: J, 9, 7, 2 D: 9, 7, 5, 3 C: Q, 8, 3 We held the opps to just their 4 spades contract. But with the club king favorably with west, I could have held it to down 3 ( 2 spade losers, a club, a diamond and the trump king). Had the club king been in the wrong place it might have been wrong to interfere. But then again I could have gotten lucky with the trump king. Or maybe they would error by overbidding to 5 spades. I think we needed to sacrifice at 5 hearts, but I am not sure the fault is mine or partner’s. I wanted to bid it. I should have, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/78 "2016-10-13T08:10:42Z")
You’re speaking with the benefit of hindsight and perfect knowledge. Partner might have been void in Hearts and West might have had 6. Something similar happened to me the other night. RHO opened 1H (showing 5) and I held H AKxxxx and opening points. With no other biddable suit, I passed! The hand was a complete misfit and one of those cases where the last to bid is the loser. Partner had 6 or 7 diamonds headed by the QJ and I had a singleton. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/79 "2016-10-13T09:43:47Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > Agree with Quartz that double is feasible - flexible call. Value-showing, expressing doubt over 4H and keeps spades in the picture. However, there’s a v good chance of it getting passed out - pard knows you have some defense and they prob have a few hearts. Unless RHO is a comedian, a second seat red pre-empt can be very heavy, and taking it one or two off might not net a very good score. > > We have to find game and I think I’d just go 4S direct here. Worth the risk to try and find the spade fit, which has decent chances of existing given the pre-empt, and our spade suit is not bad. > > Another issue with doubling is that LHO may further squeeze our space with a 5H call if they have a fit and are very weak. I agree with all of this, and that it is best to play a double as takeout. I also would not preempt with partner’s hand even if the heart really were a diamond - Kxxx is too good a spade holding, making it too likely we miss a spade fit. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/80 "2016-10-13T09:53:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Here’s one from last night which I got wrong > > Partner holds > > S: Kx > H: AQTxx > D: KQT > C: AKJ or AKQ > > I hold > > S: QJTxx > H: Kxx > D: AJx > C: xx > > Partner opened 2H (strong), I responded 2S, he then rebid 2NT, and I was somewhat flummoxed by this and bid 4H. He made 11 tricks, letting an opponent get a ruff. I’m thinking that my partner should have opened 2C or 2NT, not 2H as 2H indicates an unbalanced hand. I would open partner’s hand 2C, irrespective of whether it is J or Q clubs. The good 5-card heart suit is worth an extra point anyway. After that, it is simple to get to 6NT. 2C - 2S - 2NT - 6NT is feasible. You could use Gerber over 2NT to find out you are not missing an ace and a king. There’s no benefit in playing in hearts when you have masses of tricks, especially playing pairs. Indeed, if hearts are J9xx offside, you will go down in 6H when 6NT makes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229.md?page=5)