# Bridge: 7 No Trumps baby! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 9, 2016, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229 "2016-08-09T09:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/801 "2018-08-31T19:58:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’ve been trying to interest my partner in the Jacoby 2N; how’s it working for you? It almost \*never \*comes up! In this last session I had 4-card support, 9 hcp (or good 8?) and a singleton and just raised 1S to 4S. (Would a splinter bid be right with just 9 hcp?) Lots of “important” auctions never come up. We’re playing Inverted Minor Raises but both the 2-raise and the 3-raise are exceeding rare. We play Michaels and Unusual overcalls — again, both have almost _never_ come up. We open weak two’s fairly often but it’s never mattered that we’ve agreed only “RONF” in response. (What has mattered is partner’s failure to jump to 4 when he has four of my weak-two suit; this cost us a game and a good sacrifice, as I’ve complained here before.) I don’t know why these “important” bids almost never come up for us. Our style? Chance? Is there a database of expert hand records showing how often various auctions arise? ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/802 "2018-08-31T22:19:04Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > What is your NT range? Yes, I know you have a singleton Jack. ACBL says: "A notrump opening or overcall is natural if, by agreement, it contains no void, at most one singleton which must be the A, K or Q and no more than two doubletons. If the hand contains a singleton, it may have no doubleton.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/803 "2018-08-31T23:29:12Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > ACBL says: This is a case of telling the least lie. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/804 "2018-09-01T00:01:36Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > This is a case of telling the least lie. You can do it, but you can’t have a partnership agreement to do it. If you do it often and a director knows you do, they might not allow it because they believe you have an implicit agreement. I was in a club once whose director prohibited one partnership from using the the unusual no trump because one of the partners so often used it wrong. His partner knew he was apt to make a mistake and so was fore-warned, but opponents were not. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/805 "2018-09-01T13:02:11Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It almost \*never \*comes up! In this last session I had 4-card support, 9 hcp (or good 8?) and a singleton and just raised 1S to 4S. (Would a splinter bid be right with just 9 hcp?) > > Lots of “important” auctions never come up. We’re playing Inverted Minor Raises but both the 2-raise and the 3-raise are exceeding rare. We play Michaels and Unusual overcalls — again, both have almost _never_ come up. > > We open weak two’s fairly often but it’s never mattered that we’ve agreed only “RONF” in response. (What has mattered is partner’s failure to jump to 4 when he has four of my weak-two suit; this cost us a game and a good sacrifice, as I’ve complained here before.) > > I don’t know why these “important” bids almost never come up for us. Our style? Chance? Is there a database of expert hand records showing how often various auctions arise? J2N isn’t that common but some sort of GF raise has to be fundamental in a natural system, esp if you’re not playing 2/1 - it’s different to stuff like Michaels etc which you could easily do without and is a choice to include on your card. Most good players I know seem fine with J2N, but don’t rate the text-book response structure of 3 level shortness etc. Apparently there are better ways to follow up. > [@OldGuy](#): > > I was in a club once whose director prohibited one partnership from using the the unusual no trump because one of the partners so often used it wrong. His partner knew he was apt to make a mistake and so was fore-warned, but opponents were not. I’m all for TD’s stepping in to curb irritating play. Ghestem is an old 5/5 variation I’ve seen abused like you say - the one where the 3C bid is used to show one of the combinations [and easily forgotten]. Seen that fielded a few times from slippery players. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/806 "2018-09-01T16:57:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > ♠ KQJ3 > ❤ AQ95 > ♦ KJ84 > ♣ J Just to add that I have no problem with that hand playing 5-card majors and 2/1. I open 1D. Over partner’s 2C, I bid 2H. While reverses after a one-level response show a longer first suit, that is not necessary after a 2/1 response. In fact, with 4 hearts and 5 diamonds I would rebid 2D and partner can bid a major if she is interested in a major suit fit. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/807 "2018-09-01T17:07:08Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > Most good players I know seem fine with J2N, but don’t rate the text-book response structure of 3 level shortness etc. Apparently there are better ways to follow up. I think the biggest issue with standard J2N responses is the jump to game with a minimum hand and no shortage. It preempts partner (an issue with “fast arrival” in general). If responder is interested in slam opposite the right minimum, he has to start exploring at the 5-level. My preference is a set of responses to 2NT that include 3C = all minimums, 3D = extras and shortage somewhere. Over 3C, responder can bid 3D to ask for shortage. Another benefit of this is that if responder is not interested in slam opposite a minimum, he can now bid game and have given opponents no information about shortage in declarer’s hand. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/808 "2018-10-03T10:21:14Z")
Had a tricky problem at the table last night - my partner’s game has gone to shit ☹ In the last four games he has revoked three times(!), attempted a ruff in 6NT, needlessly ruffed winners - all stuff that’s symptomatic of a fragmented concentration. He’s also good for at least one basic bidding misunderstanding per night, consistently, last night’s being my passed hand bid of 2NT over his 1S described as game force with support. It’s very frustrating but what can you do? He’s not doing it on purpose so I’m not sure there’s value in having a sit down about it. Has anyone grasped this type of nettle and did anything good come of it? I’m good for plenty of mistakes myself, mind - bad leads, dodgy slams, tragic switches etc, but these are mistakes of trying to play bridge. Not being able to follow suit or understand a vanilla 2/1 system is just a different level. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/809 "2018-10-03T11:10:03Z")
Here’s a bidding question: you are 4-4 in diamonds and clubs with opening points and partner opens 1C. Over your 1D he jumps to 3D. Do you bid 4C? Unbeknown to you, partner has 6 clubs and 4 diamonds and 19 HCP and both 7C and 7D make but 7C is cold. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/810 "2018-10-03T11:41:56Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > Had a tricky problem at the table last night - my partner’s game has gone to shit ☹ > In the last four games he has revoked three times(!), attempted a ruff in 6NT, needlessly ruffed winners - all stuff that’s symptomatic of a fragmented concentration. He’s also good for at least one basic bidding misunderstanding per night, consistently, last night’s being my passed hand bid of 2NT over his 1S described as game force with support. > > It’s very frustrating but what can you do? He’s not doing it on purpose so I’m not sure there’s value in having a sit down about it. Has anyone grasped this type of nettle and did anything good come of it? How old is he? It could be a mental decline that neither of you can do anything about. One minor thing: in NT, do not put down a long suit on your (dummy’s) right (declarer’s left). It can look like a trump suit. Burn’s Second Law: you cannot make 3NT on a cross-ruff. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/811 "2018-10-03T11:42:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Here’s a bidding question: you are 4-4 in diamonds and clubs with opening points and partner opens 1C. Over your 1D he jumps to 3D. Do you bid 4C? > > Unbeknown to you, partner has 6 clubs and 4 diamonds and 19 HCP and both 7C and 7D make but 7C is cold. 1D response to 1C - I ain’t heard of that. What are your minor suit raise bids? I’d bid 2C inv minor raise (forcing to 3N level), and it’s done. Partner can diagnose a 10 card fit and the power for slam, so just needs to check on controls to place it in 6 or 7. Effective checking on controls for a club small slam can be a lot trickier than in a major suit, but here you know it’s 6C minimum so you’ll probably figure it out OK. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/812 "2018-10-03T11:51:42Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Here’s a bidding question: you are 4-4 in diamonds and clubs with opening points and partner opens 1C. Over your 1D he jumps to 3D. Do you bid 4C? > > Unbeknown to you, partner has 6 clubs and 4 diamonds and 19 HCP and both 7C and 7D make but 7C is cold. Hard to say without knowing the hand. I suspect I would bid 3M as a try for NT or an advanced cue bid, depending on the hand. It is not a given that you want to be in clubs even with the bigger fit. 4-4 fits can play for more tricks because you get discards on the longer suit and get a ruff. Let’s say you are Ax xxx QJxx AQxx and partner x Ax AKxx KJxxxx. 7C is no play but 7D just needs a 3-2 trump break. You throw two hearts away on the clubs and ruff a heart for the 13th trick. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/813 "2018-10-03T11:56:04Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > 1D response to 1C - I ain’t heard of that. What are your minor suit raise bids? > > I’d bid 2C inv minor raise (forcing to 3N level), and it’s done. Partner can diagnose a 10 card fit and the power for slam, so just needs to check on controls to place it in 6 or 7. Effective checking on controls for a club small slam can be a lot trickier than in a major suit, but here you know it’s 6C minimum so you’ll probably figure it out OK. You don’t raise immediately on 4-card club support because it might be a 4-3 fit. Or even 4-2 ( **Quartz** did not say how many clubs the opening guarantees). ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/814 "2018-10-03T11:56:57Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > How old is he? It could be a mental decline that neither of you can do anything about. > > One minor thing: in NT, do not put down a long suit on your (dummy’s) right (declarer’s left). It can look like a trump suit. Burn’s Second Law: you cannot make 3NT on a cross-ruff. He’s in his mid-60s, so not old particularly but maybe losing a bit of sharpness. It is certainly different to a partner in their 20s, say, where you could have no qualms about a frank exchange of views. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/815 "2018-10-03T12:24:23Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > You don’t raise immediately on 4-card club support because it might be a 4-3 fit. Or even 4-2 ( **Quartz** did not say how many clubs the opening guarantees). 2C is OK with 4 on 2-3-4-4 / 3-2-4-4 hands MPs, IMHO, because establishing the force to 3N is important, you don’t want to play in clubs, and there’s nothing really better to bid. You don’t bid a weak 3C bid on 4, for sure, as you might be left playing there on a 7 card fit. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/816 "2018-10-03T13:18:34Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > 1D response to 1C - I ain’t heard of that. What are your minor suit raise bids? It’s a natural 1C, and a natural 1D. > [@](#): > > I’d bid 2C inv minor raise (forcing to 3N level), In the first bidder’s hand? That would indicate a weak hand with no fit, a six-card suit, and perhaps only 10 points. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/817 "2018-10-03T13:19:40Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > You don’t raise immediately on 4-card club support because it might be a 4-3 fit. Or even 4-2 ( **Quartz** did not say how many clubs the opening guarantees). At least four clubs. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/818 "2018-10-03T14:07:22Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Here’s a bidding question: you are 4-4 in diamonds and clubs with opening points and partner opens 1C. Over your 1D he jumps to 3D. Do you bid 4C? > > Unbeknown to you, partner has 6 clubs and 4 diamonds and 19 HCP and both 7C and 7D make but 7C is cold. It looks like Quartz basically plays a similar system to me. As described, I too would respond 1D initially, as the change of suit is forcing for one round and allows partner to describe his hand further (I know we need to at least be in game, he doesn’t yet). I would not necessarily expect him to have more than 4 clubs, and if I bid 2C as a first response I would expect him to take this as weak support for clubs. Over his second bid of 3D I think 4C is a reasonable bid, as it makes it clear we are likely heading beyond game and shows that I am quite happy to play in his first suit, which is probably a bigger fit. Partner can then decide if cue bidding or RKCB is the most appropriate way to proceed. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/819 "2018-10-03T15:18:07Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It’s a natural 1C, and a natural 1D. > > In the first bidder’s hand? That would indicate a weak hand with no fit, a six-card suit, and perhaps only 10 points. In your hand. Should have said inv means inverted, so 2C shows 4 card support and 12+, 3C would show a weak preemptive hand with 5 clubs. It allows you to establish a game force to 3N in minor suit hands that have no major suit fits - just bid out your stoppers and you’ll easily locate 3N when it is right, or 4 / 5 C when that is right, or higher when you have a slam hand like the one in question. If you have no minor suit game force raise available, then I see why you chose to bid 1D. Inverted minors go well with Acol, though, plenty of people play them. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/820 "2018-10-06T14:23:17Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > You don’t raise immediately on 4-card club support because it might be a 4-3 fit. Or even 4-2 ( **Quartz** did not say how many clubs the opening guarantees). I see the logic of this in clubs, but it shouldn’t apply to diamonds (even though 1D also only promises 3). Isn’t 2D (inverted) clear-cut with, e.g. AQx - xx - Qxxx - QJxx For that matter, might 2C be best over 1C with AQx - x - xxxxx - KJxx ETA: As I’ve mentioned, Inverted Minor Raises (off in competition) is our major deviation from SAYC. But it hardly ever comes up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229.md?page=42)