# Bridge: 7 No Trumps baby! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 9, 2016, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229 "2016-08-09T09:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/841 "2018-10-08T12:12:51Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > @ **amarone** — To experiment with Funbridge should I download an App or can I just play on-line? How do the robots’ skill compare with humans? GNU Backgammon will tell me when I make a bad move; does Funbridge attempt that? It’s an app. I play on an iPad, but you can also play on your computer. Go to [funbridge.com](http://funbridge.com) and you can download from there. The bots are better than an average club player. It does not tell you when you have made a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![merrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@merrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrick)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/842 "2018-10-09T22:01:21Z")
A little bidding puzzle I completely messed up the other day: Second in hand, no-one vulnerable, you pick up a shapely 12-count: S Qxxxx H AKxx D QJ9x C - The fun is spoiled by your RHO, who opens 1S! Now what? And if you pass, what do you do after 1S - P - P - 2C - P? ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/843 "2018-10-09T23:04:34Z")
If this was rubber bridge I’d drop a card on the floor and then claim a misdeal! Seriously, what a nasty situation. Well, it’s only a game. I bid 2H. Partner is short in spades, so must have some red cards. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/844 "2018-10-09T23:54:17Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > The preeminent teacher in the US (and many time National Champion), Larry Cohen, disagrees with you: [Fourth Suit Forcing - Bridge Articles - Bridge with Larry Cohen](https://www.larryco.com/bridge-articles/fourth-suit-forcing) But he’s using it in a different way from the way we do. We use 4SF to find or avoid a NT contract. That it forces partner to bid is enough. When we become more advanced players… ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/845 "2018-10-09T23:57:08Z")
A bidding query: Partner passes, RHO bids 1S, and you overcall 1N (15+ points). Partner bids 2C. Is that Stayman or take-out? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/846 "2018-10-10T00:06:42Z")
> [@merrick](#): > > And if you pass, what do you do after 1S - P - P - 2C - P? I’ll bid 2S. Partner is showing 11+ points, so we could well be on for game. If partner bids 3H (showing 4 hearts) I will raise to 4H otherwise I will punt 3N. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/847 "2018-10-10T00:13:15Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > A bidding query: > > Partner passes, RHO bids 1S, and you overcall 1N (15+ points). Partner bids 2C. Is that Stayman or take-out? Most players now agree “systems on” over a 1NT overcall. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/848 "2018-10-10T03:43:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I don’t see how FSF could ever be a game force. You only use it to see if you can get to No Trumps and on a misfit you may be glad to stay in 2NT. > [@Quartz](#): > > But he’s using it in a different way from the way we do… When we become more advanced players… Just FTR: Might your first post have been clearer if the pronouns “you … you … you” were replaced with “I … I … I”? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/849 "2018-10-10T07:30:30Z")
> [@K364](#): > > If this was rubber bridge I’d drop a card on the floor and then claim a misdeal! > > Seriously, what a nasty situation. > > Well, it’s only a game. I bid 2H. Partner is short in spades, so must have some red cards. Why no balancing double if he is short in spades? We could have a spade fit ourselves. Balancing 1N hasn’t appeared either, so it’s looking like pard is long long in clubs. Think I owe partner a bid despite the alarm bells, so I’ll go ahead and misdescribe my hand with 2N. We’ll need entries in pard’s hand to run their club suit and give 3N some play, otherwise we’ll be stranded. They should be able to weigh this up and can take it out to 3C if need be. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/850 "2018-10-10T09:48:40Z")
> [@merrick](#): > > A little bidding puzzle I completely messed up the other day: > > Second in hand, no-one vulnerable, you pick up a shapely 12-count: > S Qxxxx H AKxx D QJ9x C - > > The fun is spoiled by your RHO, who opens 1S! Now what? > > And if you pass, what do you do after 1S - P - P - 2C - P? I think I’d “pass and await developments”. If partner doesn’t have a bid, we can’t possibly have missed a game. If he bids 2C, a pity I can’t then double for takeout :), but I’ll then go 2S - partly to bid my longest suit first, partly because bidding the opponent’s suit should force partner to bid again. If he goes 2N, I raise to 3N and expect it to have good chances. If he goes 3C, I pass the misfit. 3D is a bit sticky but again I bid 3N, thinking the spade Queen and length there is enough to avoid us losing 5 spade tricks off the bat. 3H gets raised to 4H. And 4S is left to play (presumably partner has 4 spades in that case). Anything else means partner must be really strong and we’re either making 5 or a slam, depending. So basically I feel like I can cope with any situation - what’s the problem? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/851 "2018-10-10T11:46:34Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But he’s using it in a different way from the way we do. We use 4SF to find or avoid a NT contract. That it forces partner to bid is enough. When we become more advanced players… You said you could not see how FSF could ever be used as a game force. I sent you links showing how, and that it is common in the US. Played that way, FSF is much more than just to find or avoid a NT contract. You can certainly play it differently, of course, and I presume that your way is the norm in Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/852 "2018-10-10T11:47:36Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > A bidding query: > > Partner passes, RHO bids 1S, and you overcall 1N (15+ points). Partner bids 2C. Is that Stayman or take-out? Another vote for Stayman (and transfers are on also). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/853 "2018-10-10T12:57:59Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > You said you could not see how FSF could ever be used as a game force. I sent you links showing how, and that it is common in the US. Played that way, FSF is much more than just to find or avoid a NT contract. > > You can certainly play it differently, of course, and I presume that your way is the norm in Scotland. You are, of course, quite correct. As I said upthread, there is much I need to learn. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/854 "2018-10-11T10:33:25Z")
Regarding the **S Qxxxx H AKxx D QJ9x C -** problem: the first pass is automatic but I’m not sure what to do after partner’s Two Clubs. With a fairish hand and three hearts, or with a good hand and only two hearts partner might have doubled. With a good hand and good clubs, he’d bid 3C. And surely he’d bid 2C, at least at matchpoints, with as little as - Qx Axxx Q9xxxxx. _ **Partner’s Two Clubs is not a strong bid.** _ Therefore I’m not optimistic. Reverse my clubs and diamonds and have partner bid 2D instead of 2C; and it would be an easy 2H bid — we’d have a chance of finding a club fit. But whatever I bid on the actual hand, we may fail to find our fit anyway. Make the actual hand slightly weaker — 11 hcp instead of 12 — and I’d pass. As is, I might feel obligated to bid, but I don’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![merrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@merrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrick)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/855 "2018-10-11T18:19:03Z")
I’m relieved some other people are finding the S Qxxxx H AKxx D QJ9x C- hand a problem. **septimus** - we play weak jump overcalls, so 3C would have shown a distributional hand with 6+ Clubs. Which meant that my partner also had a bidding problem, because he held: S Kxx H x D KTxx C AKQxx (yes, we had 8 Spades between us and opponents had 8 Hearts!). He chose to underbid 2C rather than show a 6th Club with 3C or Hearts by doubling. I didn’t think to bid 2S - playing Acol I think it would count as the Unassuming Cue Bid, showing Club support - so I bid 2D, hoping to hear 2H. Instead partner, trying to make up for the underbid, jumped to 4D. I chickened out and passed, which at least got us a positive score (4D made exactly, losing two Aces and a Spade ruff), but 3NT of course is cold. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/856 "2018-10-11T21:45:45Z")
hmmm… my clever (in hindsight only) 2H bid should pay off as partner will now bid 3NT and I might have deterred a heart lead. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/857 "2018-10-11T23:37:20Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > And surely he’d bid 2C, at least at matchpoints, with as little as - Qx Axxx Q9xxxxx. _ **Partner’s Two Clubs is not a strong bid.** _ I disagree. 2C has to be a strongish bid as it’s allowing the opener to bid again and thus find a fit in another suit. I would be expecting at least 11 HCP for an overcall at the 2 level. The hand you give would be bidding 3C, a weak jump overcall, if they bid at all (the opener might have 20 HCP). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/858 "2018-10-11T23:55:15Z")
> [@merrick](#): > > I’m relieved some other people are finding the S Qxxxx H AKxx D QJ9x C- hand a problem. > > **septimus** - we play weak jump overcalls, so 3C would have shown a distributional hand with 6+ Clubs. > Which meant that my partner also had a bidding problem, because he held: S Kxx H x D KTxx C AKQxx … > He chose to underbid 2C rather than show a 6th Club with 3C or Hearts by doubling. Surely 3C isn’t a weak jump overcall in the [pass-out chair](http://www.rpbridge.net/5e00.htm)(\*). 3C is wrong with only five clubs, but you have a _good_ 5-bagger and 3C _might_ be least of evils. It _is_ the way to Three No Trump! (Remember to say “Sorry, pard; I had a spade in with my clubs!” 😉 ) - - that webpage says 3C shows an 8-trick hand. Shouldn’t, say, 7½ tricks be quite enough? True, the hand would _still_ be almost a trick light. ( **Quartz** had Qxxxx on his recent hand and I asked him if he had the Eight-spot. I’d ask you the exact same question for a different reason! Does it look like you probably have spades doubly stopped?) ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/859 "2018-10-12T09:08:05Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I disagree. 2C has to be a strongish bid as it’s allowing the opener to bid again and thus find a fit in another suit. I would be expecting at least 11 HCP for an overcall at the 2 level. The hand you give would be bidding 3C, a weak jump overcall, if they bid at all (the opener might have 20 HCP). As Septimus has emphasised - 2C is in the protective (or balancing) seat. ‘Rules’ you may have for what an overcall / take-out double / 1NT bid looks like need to be given more latitude here as partner will often be under pressure to find a bid to protect you. Goes without saying that any action taken can be lighter in terms of hcp strength. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/862 "2018-10-12T15:52:00Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Regarding the **S Qxxxx H AKxx D QJ9x C -** problem: the first pass is automatic but I’m not sure what to do after partner’s Two Clubs. I would pass also, but you can make a takeout double if you play [equal level conversion](https://www.larryco.com/bridge-articles/equal-level-conversion-doubles) (which I do). Then a double promises nothing in clubs and if partner bids clubs, you bid 2D which means “I don’t have clubs; I have hearts and diamonds”. It is more commonly used with hands that are 4/5+ in the red suits so you do not have to overcall 2D and risk losing the heart suit. I don’t know what to do in response to 2C. 2S would show a club raise, 2D/H show a longer suit. 2NT could play very badly with a void in partner’s suit. I think I might just pass before we get into too much trouble, albeit having seen the hand, I know that this is not a successful choice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229.md?page=44)