# Bridge: 7 No Trumps baby! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 9, 2016, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229 "2016-08-09T09:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/81 "2016-10-13T09:59:11Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As I said, I got flummoxed. My mistake. > > Over an opening bid of 2NT I would have bid 3NT, being 1 point short of values for a 4NT bid. Your spades are worth an extra point. The 10 solidifies the suit and the 5th spade is an extra trick but no extra HCP. Compare the trick-taking potential with the same hand but where the 10S is replaced by the 10C. Clearly your hand is much better, but they have the same number of HCP. Opposite a 2NT opener I would transfer to 3 spades and then bid 4NT, which is natural. Partner would bid 6NT (or possibly 6H). ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/82 "2016-10-13T10:06:38Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > On an earlier hand (E/W vulnerable), sitting South I held: > > S: 8, 6 > H: A, Q, T, 8, 6, 4, 3 > D: J > C: A, 4, 2 > > The bidding went: > > E: 1C > S (me): 1H > W: 1S > N: Pass > E: 3S > S: 4H > W: 4S > > All pass. I wanted to sacrifice 5 H with favorable vulnerability, but I had heard nothing from partner and my hand had a lot of losers. > > Partner had: > > S: 9, 3 > H: J, 9, 7, 2 > D: 9, 7, 5, 3 > C: Q, 8, 3 > > We held the opps to just their 4 spades contract. But with the club king favorably with west, I could have held it to down 3 ( 2 spade losers, a club, a diamond and the trump king). Had the club king been in the wrong place it might have been wrong to interfere. But then again I could have gotten lucky with the trump king. Or maybe they would error by overbidding to 5 spades. > > I think we needed to sacrifice at 5 hearts, but I am not sure the fault is mine or partner’s. I wanted to bid it. I should have, I guess. I think partner should have bid 5H, with 4-card trump support. You have bid your hand. However, how does 5S go down? If you have a heart loser playing in hearts, then hearts must break 2-0 so you have no defensive heart trick. That leaves just two club tricks on defense. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/83 "2016-10-13T10:17:28Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Your spades are worth an extra point. Really? With a maximum of 33 HCP, it would possible for someone to have an Ace and a King, possibly in the same suit. If that person were on lead, we’d go down immediately. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/84 "2016-10-13T10:58:49Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? With a maximum of 33 HCP, it would possible for someone to have an Ace and a King, possibly in the same suit. If that person were on lead, we’d go down immediately. Yes, really. You have to evaluate how many tricks you can make and QJTxx Kxx AJX xx is clearly better than QJxx Kxx AJx Txx. Just to count 10 HCP and use that as your sole evaluation is wrong. If you add one point for a decent 5-card suit, you will not go far wrong. Of course it is possible you will be missing an AK, but you cannot have perfection. Bridge is a percentage game. Put your hand opposite a balanced 22 points and it will make 6NT way more often than it will go down. I (electronically) dealt 64 hands where your partner has a balanced 22 points. You can see them [here](http://playbridge.com/pb_get_boards.php?set_id=MR0526S). There are no occasions where the opponents have AK in a suit. 6NT is a good contract on the vast majority of the hands (maybe all of them). I only analyzed the first 10. 6NT is 100% on nine of them and better than 70% on the other. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/85 "2016-10-13T11:33:02Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > You’re speaking with the benefit of hindsight and perfect knowledge. Partner might have been void in Hearts and West might have had 6. Exactly - partner knows you are long in hearts, so they are the one who needs to decide whether to increase the sacrifice, based on their values. > [@Quartz](#): > > Something similar happened to me the other night. RHO opened 1H (showing 5) and I held H AKxxxx and opening points. With no other biddable suit, I passed! The hand was a complete misfit and one of those cases where the last to bid is the loser. Partner had 6 or 7 diamonds headed by the QJ and I had a singleton. Had opener’s partner bid (say) 1S, your partner passed, and opener bid 2H, would your system then allow you to double for penalties? I would normally play that the first (non-pass) bid by a partnership is always double for take-out, but in this particular case I think it would be obvious (if partner is paying attention) that the double must be for penalties, as if for take-out you would have done it the first time. On the other hand, the double might alert the opponents to where all the values are, which could help them in the play. What do you think? I realise I am in way over my head in terms of expertise in this thread, but if any kind soul would care to briefly critique my earlier post, I’d be very grateful. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/86 "2016-10-13T12:48:00Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > Exactly - partner knows you are long in hearts, so they are the one who needs to decide whether to increase the sacrifice, based on their values. > Had opener’s partner bid (say) 1S, your partner passed, and opener bid 2H, would your system then allow you to double for penalties? I would normally play that the first (non-pass) bid by a partnership is always double for take-out, but in this particular case I think it would be obvious (if partner is paying attention) that the double must be for penalties, as if for take-out you would have done it the first time. On the other hand, the double might alert the opponents to where all the values are, which could help them in the play. What do you think? > > . It’s normally better to trust partner to re-open with a double in these sort of situations, which you can then pass. So if you’re in the pass-out seat you need to be quite aggressive with your balancing doubles if you suspect pard might be sitting on a trump stack. If you’re playing with someone who doesn’t grasp this concept then a double like you describe usually gets the message across. The information you give to the opps when you double is a trade off against the possible penalty you stand to collect, all part and parcel of bidding judgement. You obv want to avoid your double tipping the balance such that declarer takes a winning line - but don’t talk yourself out of obvious doubles. It’s a truism that people don’t double enough at bridge, esp at pairs [imps is more dangerous]. Just look how shiny and new the red cards look compared to the green ones! ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/87 "2016-10-13T12:59:22Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > The bidding went: > > E: 1C > S (me): 1H > W: 1S > N: Pass > E: 3S > S: 4H > W: 4S With 4 card support, I think partner(N) should have bid 3H. I play that jump as preemptive. A cue bid of 2S or 2C would show values. > [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > Had opener’s partner bid (say) 1S, your partner passed, and opener bid 2H, would your system then allow you to double for penalties? I would normally play that the first (non-pass) bid by a partnership is always double for take-out, but in this particular case I think it would be obvious (if partner is paying attention) that the double must be for penalties, as if for take-out you would have done it the first time. On the other hand, the double might alert the opponents to where all the values are, which could help them in the play. What do you think? > > I realise I am in way over my head in terms of expertise in this thread, but if any kind soul would care to briefly critique my earlier post, I’d be very grateful. I think a double here: 1H-P-1S-P-2H-X would show a hand like xx xxx AKxx KQxx A good hand that couldn’t double 1H for takeout because of not having spades. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/88 "2016-10-13T13:05:13Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > Had opener’s partner bid (say) 1S, your partner passed, and opener bid 2H, would your system then allow you to double for penalties? I would normally play that the first (non-pass) bid by a partnership is always double for take-out, but in this particular case I think it would be obvious (if partner is paying attention) that the double must be for penalties, as if for take-out you would have done it the first time. On the other hand, the double might alert the opponents to where all the values are, which could help them in the play. What do you think? I think that in the case you posit, a double would be take-out for the minors, saying that you have near-bidding points and 4+ cards in each minor. My points are likely in the minor suits too. Doubling a low-level contract for penalties when you have already passed doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/89 "2016-10-13T13:09:14Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > I think a double here: 1H-P-1S-P-2H-X would show a hand like > xx > xxx > AKxx > KQxx > A good hand that couldn’t double 1H for takeout because of not having spades. Yes, though length can substitute for strength: x xx KJxxx KJxxx ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/90 "2016-10-13T13:11:06Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > I only analyzed the first 10. 6NT is 100% on nine of them and better than 70% on the other. Better than 80%, actually (it is hand 1 in the link I provided). It needs one of two finesses or a 3-3 break (or a squeeze). ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/91 "2016-10-13T13:59:04Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > I agree with you that your partner’s hand looks like a 2NT opener (20-22), or 2C if he does have Qc instead of the J (23 HCPs). I assume he intended his rebid of 2NT to show that he was fairly balanced but with H as his longest suit. Unless I thought it would totally confuse the situation, I think I would have attempted a cue bid of 3D over this (as I always play change of suit as 100% forcing for one round - and in this case it would obviously be forcing to game anyway), showing I had a first round control in diamonds but not clubs. Partner can then deduce he has no losers in clubs or diamonds and use Blackwood/Gerber/RKCB (or whatever you have agreed) to find out that you do not have the spade Ace (as he already knows you have the diamond Ace - unless your cue bid was to show a diamond void, which is unlikely) but you do have the heart King. If I were him I think I’d try 6NT, which seems to make comfortably. > > Any gaps in the above analysis? Agree it is better to show the hand as balanced. As stated in another post, the good 5-card heart suit makes it better than 22 points. There is a site [here](http://www.jeff-goldsmith.org/cgi-bin/knr.cgi) that evaluates hands and assigns adjustments to raw HCP based on suit length, intermediates, honor combinations and maybe other factors. It gives a Kaplan & Rubens (or K&R) count. It evaluates the hand in question as 23 points. Hence I open 2C and rebid 2NT. If you are concerned about missing a 5-3 major suit fit by bidding NT holding a 5-card major, there are conventions to find out about that - Puppet Stayman is the most popular. There is a variation called Muppet Stayman. The problem with your proposed 3D bid is that you have not yet agreed trumps, so 3D will be construed as natural. I prefer a 3H bid to set trumps, then if partner cue bids you can bid 4D as a cue bid. Actually, I prefer to bid 3H over 2H, assuming that is forcing (it is 30 years since I played strong 2s). Kxx is a fantastic holding in hearts and I want partner to know immediately that we have found a fit. You are then correct that partner can find out about slam using RKCB. I would not play Gerber when looking for a slam in a suit - you want 4C available as a cue bid. And you are correct that 6NT is the best contract, especially at matchpoints. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/92 "2016-10-13T14:24:50Z")
Thanks all, informative as always. In relation to the above post - on the layout given, I suppose if partner launched straight into Blackwood rather than cue bidding after your proposed 3H second response (which I agree with by the way, now you have explained it), it doesn’t really matter which Ace you have from partner’s point of view, as it means he has no losers in whichever suit it is. So he can still bid 6NT once he knows about the Kings. Of course, were this not the case it just becomes a demonstration of why cue bidding can be more accurate than Blackwood. I don’t play Gerber as with my lack of experience there are only a (very) limited number of conventions I can rely on remembering correctly, and of the two Blackwood is more common (and RKCB is useful in more situations, in my view). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/93 "2016-11-05T16:19:13Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > I suppose if partner launched straight into Blackwood … it doesn’t really matter which Ace you have from partner’s point of view, as it means he has no losers in whichever suit it is. Yes. I once had a huge hand in clubs and my partner opened. Things didn’t go well and we missed bidding the easy slam in clubs. In the post-mortem, it was pointed out that I could have bid 4NT (ordinary Blackwood) as I was able to cope with any response, passing a response of 5C, and raising a response of 5D to 6C, and 5H to 7C. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2016, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/94 "2016-11-07T12:52:37Z")
I love those (rare) situations where you can use a convention knowing that for some responses, you can pass where normally you would bid on and it will still be OK. It may leave partner horrified that you have forgotten the convention, until the end of the hand when they can see why you did it! I think a similar thing can arise if you use Stayman with few points and plenty of diamonds - potentially just passing out the 2D response. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/95 "2016-11-16T23:41:55Z")
A couple of grand slams from the Atlanta Sectional last week. First hand in the A/X pairs - this is the top bracket. My LHO held Axxx AKx AKQ98 Q His partner opened 1H, he bid 2D, game forcing. His partner bid 2H showing a 6-card suit. He now bid 4NT RKCB (although I would play it as natural - you can bid 3H first of you want to agree hearts). His partner bid 5C, showing 1 or 4 key cards. He should now bid 5D, asking about the QH, and partner would have bid 6C showing both QH and KC. However, he bid 5NT, his partner bid 6C showing KC, and he bid 7H. Not only could he have been off the QH, but if hearts are coming in, he can count 13 tricks and should bid 7NT at matchpoints. I was sure that would be a good board. Nope. In this highest bracket, only one pair can apparently count to 13 and bid 7NT. Over 60% of the field missed the grand. His partner had Jx QJxxxx Jx AKx Now one in our direction. I held ATxxxx Axx xx Ax. I opened 1S, partner bid 2D, game forcing, showing 5+ diamonds. I bid 2S, showing 6. He bid 3S, setting trumps. I cue bid 4C, which does not show serious slam intent but is a cue bid in case partner is interested. He bid 4NT, RKCB. I bid 5C showing 0 or 3, and he bid 7NT because he can count to 13. He held: QJx KQx AKQxxx Q You will have spotted the flaw. Partner may be able to count to 13, but apparently not to 5 - we were missing a key card. He thought my 5C bid showed 1 or 4. He won the club lead, crossed to hand and took the spade finesse. It lost, and they cashed six more club tricks. Down 7, vulnerable. This result, as they say in cricket, did not trouble the scorers. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/96 "2016-11-17T00:28:51Z")
An interesting hand came up last night: I opened 1NT (12-14) and my partner passed holding Sxx Hx DAQJ98 CKxxxx. I held SAK Hxxx DKxxx CAxx, making 9 tricks. 6D would have been an easy make as CQJ were doubleton - one of us held the Ten. We were playing transfers and a transfer to the minors via 2S usually requires 6 and he might have missed.a club fit. What should my partner have bid? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/97 "2016-11-17T02:13:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > An interesting hand came up last night: I opened 1NT (12-14) and my partner passed holding Sxx Hx DAQJ98 CKxxxx. I held SAK Hxxx DKxxx CAxx, making 9 tricks. 6D would have been an easy make as CQJ were doubleton - one of us held the Ten. We were playing transfers and a transfer to the minors via 2S usually requires 6 and he might have missed.a club fit. What should my partner have bid? It’s tough to reach minor suit contracts after a no trump opening unless you have specific system agreements to handle it. With some partners I play that 3C = 5-5 minors, invitational; 3D = 5-5 minors, game forcing. That would work on this hand. Partner bids 3C and you are happy to bid game in diamonds. Without that sort of convention, I probably would invite game in no trump and hope that one of the minors comes home. And that opponents do not lead hearts as they have at least 5 to cash. I don’t criticize a pass of 1NT, though. I imagine +150 is a decent result at pairs. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/98 "2016-11-17T11:36:50Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > A couple of grand slams from the Atlanta Sectional last week. > > First hand in the A/X pairs - this is the top bracket. My LHO held > > Axxx > AKx > AKQ98 > Q > > His partner opened 1H, he bid 2D, game forcing. His partner bid 2H showing a 6-card suit. He now bid 4NT RKCB (although I would play it as natural - you can bid 3H first of you want to agree hearts). His partner bid 5C, showing 1 or 4 key cards. He should now bid 5D, asking about the QH, and partner would have bid 6C showing both QH and KC. However, he bid 5NT, his partner bid 6C showing KC, and he bid 7H. Not only could he have been off the QH, but if hearts are coming in, he can count 13 tricks and should bid 7NT at matchpoints. I was sure that would be a good board. Nope. In this highest bracket, only one pair can apparently count to 13 and bid 7NT. Over 60% of the field missed the grand. His partner had > > Jx > QJxxxx > Jx > AKx > > Now one in our direction. I held ATxxxx Axx xx Ax. I opened 1S, partner bid 2D, game forcing, showing 5+ diamonds. I bid 2S, showing 6. He bid 3S, setting trumps. I cue bid 4C, which does not show serious slam intent but is a cue bid in case partner is interested. He bid 4NT, RKCB. I bid 5C showing 0 or 3, and he bid 7NT because he can count to 13. > > He held: > > QJx > KQx > AKQxxx > Q > > You will have spotted the flaw. Partner may be able to count to 13, but apparently not to 5 - we were missing a key card. He thought my 5C bid showed 1 or 4. He won the club lead, crossed to hand and took the spade finesse. It lost, and they cashed six more club tricks. Down 7, vulnerable. This result, as they say in cricket, did not trouble the scorers. I guess your second hand just goes to show even the (relatively) simple conventions can easily go very wrong. Bad luck. On the first hand, how can responder count 13 tricks? He doesn’t know that partner has the jack of hearts, does he? True, for this to be a problem the defenders would need to have a lucky 4/0 split in hearts, so it might be a good gamble anyway, or am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/99 "2016-11-17T11:53:57Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > I guess your second hand just goes to show even the (relatively) simple conventions can easily go very wrong. Bad luck. > > On the first hand, how can responder count 13 tricks? He doesn’t know that partner has the jack of hearts, does he? True, for this to be a problem the defenders would need to have a lucky 4/0 split in hearts, so it might be a good gamble anyway, or am I missing something? You are right that it is possible that hearts are 4-0, and you are also correct that it is a good gamble anyway. A 4-0 break is only 9.6%, and even then you make when: [ul] [li]partner has the jack[/li][li]partner has no jack but has the ten and nine[/li][li]partner has no jack or nine, but has the ten and the 4 card hearts are onside[/li][/ul] I make that a nearly 98% grand slam, so well worth bidding. And the odds are the same in no trump, so you should bid 7NT at pairs. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229/100 "2016-11-17T12:33:49Z")
Makes sense, thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-7-no-trumps-baby/762229.md?page=6)