# Bridge collapse in Baltimore {2024-03-26} **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [March 26, 2024, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372 "2024-03-26T08:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/181 "2024-03-27T05:10:32Z")
Do you have a link to the story you meant? I did a search as you suggested and found many Bloomberg stories in the results. Not sure which one you read. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/182 "2024-03-27T06:55:37Z")
> [@K364](#): > > It could have been the Golden Gate, or the Verrazano Narrows bridge. I’m thinking there should be a review of the piers and the protection to those piers on all major bridges spanning sea lanes. I really doubt ANY bridge’s supports are robust enough to withstand 100,000 tons impacting them. And even if we had the engineering ability to do that I very much doubt anyone will have the money to retrofit all the bridges that could use it. > [@Magiver](#): > > If it’s ruddered to steer hard left and the props are reversed without changing the rudder that would turn the boat to the right. Did the loss of power affect rudder control? No power = no rudder control. When the ship goes dark it’s drifting. I very much doubt anyone _steered_ it into the bridge, that implies someone other than physics was in control. It’s possible crew action might have made it worse but I think once it went dark the first time the end result was inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/183 "2024-03-27T07:37:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > No power = no rudder control. When the ship goes dark it’s drifting. I very much doubt anyone _steered_ it into the bridge, that implies someone other than physics was in control. It’s possible crew action might have made it worse but I think once it went dark the first time the end result was inevitable. I agree but what I am surprised about is that there are no failsafe/backup systems. A backup need not work for a long time…just a few minutes but, apparently, there is nothing like that. It seems like if a fuse blows at the wrong moment the ship is fucked. I’d hope they’d be a bit more resilient to something going wrong. (I think it was more than a fuse…just an illustration) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/184 "2024-03-27T07:55:06Z")
As has been mentioned upthread, for 99.9% of a cargo ship’s journey, if they lose the rudder for three or four minutes, it’s not a big deal, because they’re on the open ocean and there’s nothing around. It’s that remaining 0.1% where minutes matter. But that tiny scale of probability is born out by the rarity of these events. It’s not like we’re seeing cargo ships wipe out harborside infrastructure on a weekly basis. As with anything else in a free market, safety measures will tend to stabilize at a “good enough” point. Don’t spend money unnecessarily to prevent things that happen with vanishing infrequency, but also don’t cut too many corners so the problems become disruptive. Be _just safe enough._ That’s how things tend to work, in my observation. Whether this is good or bad, overall, is a matter of opinion. In the wake of an incident like this, there will be an argument about whether we are, in fact, “just safe enough.” The question is whether that’s a real problem, or just recency bias. I’m not making an argument either way. I’m an uninformed observer on matters of maritime safety, like nearly everybody else weighing in. My comment here is a broad one, generalized after watching people react to catastrophic incidents of all kinds. The question to ask, I think, is not whether _this incident_ is a problem, because, yeah, obviously it was a huge disaster. The question to ask is whether this is symptomatic of a broader problem which can be addressed with some sort of reform, and that, I would say, is something very few of us are genuinely qualified to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/185 "2024-03-27T07:57:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I really doubt ANY bridge’s supports are robust enough to withstand 100,000 tons impacting them. And even if we had the engineering ability to do that I very much doubt anyone will have the money to retrofit all the bridges that could use it. I have been involved with similar incidents of substantially heavier vessels hitting infrastructure. They aren’t unstoppable –it’s just a matter of strength and distance. If the vessel has hit the bridge it’s too late - the best protection is a reinforced steel concrete structure up and downstream of bridge pylons that will stop a ship before it can reach the relatively delicate bridge itself. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I agree but what I am surprised about is that there are no failsafe/backup systems. A backup need not work for a long time…just a few minutes but, apparently, there is nothing like that. There are backup systems. Presumably they didn’t work here. That doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/186 "2024-03-27T07:58:38Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I have been involved with similar incidents of substantially heavier vessels hitting infrastructure. They aren’t unstoppable –it’s just a matter of strength and distance. > > If the vessel has hit the bridge it’s too late - the best protection is a reinforced steel concrete structure up and downstream of bridge pylons that will stop a ship before it can reach the relatively delicate bridge itself. In that case… good to know someone has thought that up. In which case there’s the matter of retrofitting bridges with protective structures. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/187 "2024-03-27T08:01:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > In which case there’s the matter of retrofitting bridges with protective structures. Which of course results in a never ending argument about cost vs benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/188 "2024-03-27T09:00:16Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > It’s that remaining 0.1% where minutes matter. But that tiny scale of probability is born out by the rarity of these events. It’s not like we’re seeing cargo ships wipe out harborside infrastructure on a weekly basis. > > As with anything else in a free market, safety measures will tend to stabilize at a “good enough” point. Don’t spend money unnecessarily to prevent things that happen with vanishing infrequency, but also don’t cut too many corners so the problems become disruptive. Be _just safe enough._ Sure. But when you have one million ships in the world that is still 1,000 accidents. So, what is “good enough” in your view when, even if rare, the outcome of a mishap is so catastrophic? There was only one 9/11 with planes. That was four planes out of what…over 35+ million flights that year? That’s 0.00001% of all plane flights. What did we do about that? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/189 "2024-03-27T09:21:37Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Which of course results in a never ending argument about cost vs benefit. Indeed. I suspect the onus is better put on the ships. Make them have some failsafes good enough to get them through 10 minutes or whatever is deemed a minimum (e.g. battery banks able to turn the rudder for a few critical minutes even if all other power is lost). We do it for planes. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/190 "2024-03-27T09:44:08Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So, what is “good enough” in your view when, even if rare, the outcome of a mishap is so catastrophic? As I said, I am not offering an opinion on that, because I am an uninformed observer, and such a discussion needs to be led by qualified experts, of which there are very, very few here. I was simply pointing out that one isolated catastrophe proves very little, despite the impulse among internet randos to extrapolate therefrom. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/191 "2024-03-27T09:55:15Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > I was simply pointing out that one isolated catastrophe proves very little, despite the impulse among internet randos to extrapolate therefrom. Randos is true but “one isolated” is not true. There are plenty of examples of big ships crashing into things. They are usually not as dramatic as this crash was but they happen. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/192 "2024-03-27T10:48:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There are plenty of examples of big ships crashing into things. Well, then, clearly I must defer to your expertise in the field. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/193 "2024-03-27T10:48:54Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Tugs are only usually used for specific manoeuvres that vessels can’t manage on their own. Are you sure? [This video](https://youtu.be/R4AuGZIhJ_c?t=909) (queued to 15:10) shows video of the Queen Mary 2 being tended by a tugboat. The QM2 is actually capable of maneuvering in tight spaces on her how but the tug is there “just in case” (as can be seen by the slack tow lines). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/194 "2024-03-27T10:49:28Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Well, then, clearly I must defer to your expertise in the field. It may not be much but it seems more than yours. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/195 "2024-03-27T11:28:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Did the loss of power affect rudder control? There is no way one could turn the rudder on such a huge ship manually. It would require a version of “power steering” for sure, and that would require power, would it not? I’m at the “Huge Freighters for Beginners” level, so I’m just feeling my way here. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/196 "2024-03-27T11:29:30Z")
I mispoke slightly - I should have said that tugs are only used for specific manoeuvres that the vessel can’t manage on their own _or during periods of vulnerability_. The Queen Mary 2 is being attended by a tug because it’s leaving berth and swinging. Ships tend to be vulnerable until they have steerage way. The Sydney Harbour Master also tends to be cautious about vessels that are not known to the port and its pilots and requires more tug attendance till they are known. If you want the detail on tug use in Sydney Harbour, here’s some light reading for you: > **[harbour\_masters\_directions\_2016\_final\_v01\_19\_07\_16.pdf](https://www.portauthoritynsw.com.au/media/1100/harbour_masters_directions_2016_final_v01_19_07_16.pdf)** > > 2.05 MB Check point 2.108.9 - “On departure, the tugs will be retained, on vessels other than tankers, until east of Fort Denison in Sydney Harbour… or longer if requested by the pilot or master” Have a look on Google maps and you will find that Fort Denison is 7.5km or so from the Harbour entrance ie tugs are dropped way, way before ships exit the harbour. Your video guy (who describes himself as an illustrator) says he saw Queen Mary 2 take a tug escort further out - he has no background in modern commercial shipping and it wouldn’t surprise me if he was just wrong - but if not who knows? Cruise vessels can be about the show as much as anything. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/197 "2024-03-27T11:33:35Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Ships tend to be vulnerable until they have steerage way. QM2 has [Azipods.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azipod) It also has bow thrusters. It does not need “steerage way.” It has no rudder. It can spin in place if it wants to (granted that is a big place…it’s a very big ship). ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/198 "2024-03-27T11:36:21Z")
Until its systems fail, and HM’s tend to be cautious about that when in close confines. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/199 "2024-03-27T11:46:48Z")
I 100% agree. I wonder why this ship (or presumably all ships) leaving this harbor in Baltimore do not have a tug boat escort. Given the narrow slot ships needed to navigate to get past the bridge it would seem prudent. But this harbor didn’t do that it seems. Cost cutting to attract more shipping is my guess but I really do not know. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/200 "2024-03-27T12:01:49Z")
Because it’s very low risk. Once a vessel has steerage way keeping it in a channel of the width involved here is facile, unless something goes terribly wrong. Things go terribly wrong rarely. How often is too often is a risk vs reward value judgment. As I said above I doubt an escort tug would have made any difference anyway. There was too little time and tugs aren’t very effective at exerting lateral force on a ship that is at full manoeuvring speed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372.md?page=11)