# Bridge collapse in Baltimore {2024-03-26} **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [March 26, 2024, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372 "2024-03-26T08:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/341 "2024-04-02T13:38:24Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > They didn’t exactly dust off some ancient forgotten text to screw over Baltimore, I bet every big shipper who comes to our shores knows this law inside and out. I understand that. I just think it is a ridiculously low cap. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/342 "2024-04-02T14:23:36Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > 11 ships are stranded at the docks. They should just attach a whole bunch of helicopters and fly them out. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/343 "2024-04-02T14:25:43Z")
_Blimps!_ We need ship-lifting blimps. That’s the answer! ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/344 "2024-04-02T15:18:31Z")
Maybe Musk can ~~build~~ ~~design~~ ~~sketch~~ propose a big-ass submarine to load them up and take them out. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/345 "2024-04-02T15:48:32Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > _Blimps!_ We need ship-lifting blimps. That’s the answer! Oh, the huge manatee! [![](https://i.postimg.cc/xjPnxKVx/ec073155-bb81-4407-af2e-05950526282b.jpg) ](https://i.postimg.cc/xjPnxKVx/ec073155-bb81-4407-af2e-05950526282b.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/346 "2024-04-02T17:11:31Z")
I laughed out loud. For real. Nicely done! ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/347 "2024-04-02T17:22:16Z")
Created by DALL-E I hope. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/348 "2024-04-02T19:04:15Z")
Bring in the Flying Whales! > **[FLYING WHALES Accueil](https://www.flying-whales.com/en/home/)** > > Les dirigeables FLYING WHALES, une solution de transport profondément innovante reposant sur un nouvel écosystème. This project gives me so much joy, I actually want to see it succeed! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/349 "2024-04-02T22:19:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > This is why we can’t have nice things. Utterly ridiculous: > > Full Title: **Singaporean firm whose ship took down the Baltimore bridge just cited an 1851 maritime law to cap liability at $44 million** Hey, it worked for the _Titanic_… ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/350 "2024-04-02T22:35:07Z")
For reference’s sake, here’s the specific bit of the US Code that creates that limitation of liability: [https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml;jsessionid=138EA722F4CDEBE5A86E86EE8758B7A1?req=49&f=treesort&fq=true&num=3404&hl=true&edition=prelim&granuleId=USC-prelim-title46-section56305](https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml;jsessionid=138EA722F4CDEBE5A86E86EE8758B7A1?req=49&f=treesort&fq=true&num=3404&hl=true&edition=prelim&granuleId=USC-prelim-title46-section56305) > **[Limitation of Liability Act of 1851](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limitation_of_Liability_Act_of_1851)** > > In United States maritime law, the Limitation of Liability Act of 1851, codified as 46 U.S.C. § 30523 since December 2022, states that the owner of a vessel may limit damage claims to the value of the vessel at the end of the voyage plus "pending freight", as long as the owner can prove it lacked knowledge of the problem beforehand. This Act was the subject of a 2001 United States Supreme Court case in Lewis v. Lewis & Clark Marine, Inc. > The Act was passed by Congress on March 3, 1851 to protect... ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/351 "2024-04-03T06:39:35Z")
Much of the rest of the world implements the Convention on Limitation of Liability for Maritime Claims (LLMC). The USA (always exceptionalist) is not a party to the LLMC but has a similar scheme loosely based on LLMC or its forerunners. The limits under the LLMC have been updated from time to time. If this casualty had occurred in a jurisdiction that implements LLMC with the latest limits, the limits would have been (depending on exchange rates) approximately : Claims for loss of life or personal injury – USD116M Other claims - USD58M The LLMC limit is regarded as virtually unbreakable – that is, while the limit theoretically can be broken under certain circumstances of extreme culpability, as a matter of practicality those circumstances will essentially never arise. I know little about US limitation law but as I read the statute the US limit is probably rather more easily broken particularly with the prevalence of jury trials in the USA. I could be wrong about that though. > [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Just to be clear, this isn’t some obscure law they dug up, this particular limitation of liability is very well known in the shipping world, and it was predictable that they would invoke it. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > They didn’t exactly dust off some ancient forgotten text to screw over Baltimore, I bet every big shipper who comes to our shores knows this law inside and out. Ship liability _insurers_ are fully familiar with limitation of liability for maritime claims, and consequently it is always invoked when available. However, incidents don’t hit limitation very often at all, and someone can easily get through an entire career working in ship-owning and operations without being involved in a single incident that reaches limitation, and consequently IME shipowners usually aren’t aware of it. I have had only a handful of limitation cases in my 30+ year career and in the three where I can recall, the shipowner wasn’t aware of limitation till I told them. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The video below explores the myriad problems surrounding liability for this accident. It is very complex and very weird to people not in the business. I can’t cover it all, you’ll have to watch the 25 minute video but here is one example. > > In maritime law the people who have cargo on the ship share in the liability. The reasoning being that the ship would not have been there and involved in an accident if it were not carrying your cargo. This would be akin to you getting in a taxi (or Uber/Lyft) and the taxi driver getting in an accident. The insurance company would lay some liability on you since the driver would never have been in that place and time were they not driving you. Madness but apparently this is normal in maritime law. > > Or if a ship sinks (this one didn’t) they can’t be sued for the value of the cargo since the cargo only has value when it gets to port. Since it never got to port the cargo value is zero. Alternatively I strongly suggest that you don’t watch this 25 minute video since based on the small amount I could stand to sit through, you will only increase your level of ignorance. Because he only half knows what he’s talking about, it’s full of half truths which are the worst sort. I suspect what you are talking about in your second paragraph is General Average which concerns additional costs of a voyage due to circumstances outside a shipowner’s control – not _liability_ but _costs_. I’m not sure what your second para is based on but I suspect (if it’s correct at all) it is based on some half-understood principle of US maritime law - perhaps limitation since as I’m reading it if the ship and all cargo is lost limitation may be zero. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/352 "2024-04-03T09:48:55Z")
Sorry my last para should read: > [@Princhester](#): > > I’m not sure what your [third] para is based on… ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/353 "2024-04-03T12:07:23Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Alternatively I strongly suggest that you don’t watch this 25 minute video Am much relieved at hearing your assessment. I was beginning to think I’d been working in some parallel universe of import/export trading for the past 35 years. As to question of the ownership goods, freight charges and risk, the graphic below of standard INCOTERMs demonstrates the permutations. The obligations of risk/insurance of traded goods while in transit is a contracted agreement between buyer and seller. There is no involvement with the shipping line, except in meeting accreditation as a suitable carrier with the buyer or sellers maritime insurer. [![](https://i.ibb.co/KX2Q7rz/incoterms-2020.png) ](https://i.ibb.co/KX2Q7rz/incoterms-2020.png) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/354 "2024-04-03T14:10:04Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > As to question of the ownership goods, freight charges and risk, the graphic below of standard INCOTERMs demonstrates the permutations. > The obligations of risk/insurance of traded goods while in transit is a contracted agreement between buyer and seller. There is no involvement with the shipping line, except in meeting accreditation as a suitable carrier with the buyer or sellers maritime insurer. This is largely irrelevant to the current topic. INCOTERMS concern who pays for freight and insurance, and the passing of title and risk, as between buyer and seller (known collectively in the trade as “cargo interests”). INCOTERMS are relevant only _as between them_. INCOTERMS have no substantive relevance to the liability (if any) of carriers to cargo interests. Such liability is a completely separate topic governed by the terms of the contract of carriage and/or various statutes and international treaties. Almost invariably, when cargo is lost or damaged, cargo interests are paid out by cargo underwriters. Cargo underwriters then consider whether they have a viable right of recovery against the carrier/s. If so, they pursue that recovery claim under subrogated rights. Very often this recovery is completed without any or any significant involvement of cargo interests themselves. Which is probably why you have had nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/355 "2024-04-03T16:22:55Z")
Former Director Port of Baltimore discusses the ongoing recovery. He handled the recovery of a grounded Container Ship in the port a couple years ago. Baltimore has a lot of cranes, steel recycling, and experience to expedite this recovery. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/l-DAZqTZCb8/maxresdefault.jpg "William Doyle on Baltimore | CEO Dredging Contractors of America & Former Port Director") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-DAZqTZCb8) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/356 "2024-04-04T23:10:24Z")
Have they started lifting any of the bridge out yet? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/357 "2024-04-05T00:10:33Z")
This local news clip visited the wreck and reported one 200 ton piece had been cut and put on a barge. It took ten hours to lift it from the water. The cleanup will be a long process and could provide employment for hundreds of workers. Link [https://youtu.be/RsrQMt5S7QI?si=B7uPeYDI9PKrR8k4](https://youtu.be/RsrQMt5S7QI?si=B7uPeYDI9PKrR8k4) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2024, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/358 "2024-04-06T01:58:58Z")
They said it’s been windy so maybe that slowed things down. It’d still like to see the process in action. It looks incredibly dangerous to cut through beams that could shift when separated. I was expecting the workers to be farther away from the actually cutting process. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2024, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/359 "2024-04-06T03:48:59Z")
This is the work of a year, with a winter off. Holding work for a couple days for adverse weather is smart. > [@Magiver](#): > > I was expecting the workers to be farther away from the actually cutting process Robotic tools are farther in the future than we might wish. Meantime these poor bastards need a job. And probably a rather high-paying one. They’d much rather their robotic replacement take its time arriving. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2024, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372/360 "2024-04-06T10:32:46Z")
Third body recovered late yesterday [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridge-collapse-in-baltimore-2024-03-26/999372.md?page=19)