# Bridgegate question **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 15, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880 "2014-01-15T16:33:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/61 "2014-01-16T21:03:30Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > WTF? No one is saying they did it simply to hurt people. From post #27: Chronos: “This was not done for anyone’s personal benefit, and so trying to make sense of it in those terms won’t work. It was done as an act of spite. **The purpose was to hurt people** , and it succeeded in that.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/62 "2014-01-16T21:07:47Z")
You guys have to be more specific about the meaning of ‘hurt’ and ‘people’. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/63 "2014-01-16T21:11:48Z")
It seems that the purpose of the bridge closure was to hurt a political opponent by hurting the voters in his area. If the voters then took out frustration on the political enemy, great. But mainly it was to hurt the people, thus showing the political enemy “don’t mess with us”. It’s like a gang leader sent some members out to randomly beat up citizens in a rival gang’s territory. They are sending a message: Don’t Fuck With Us. Of course they meant to hurt people. That was the whole _point_. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/64 "2014-01-16T21:19:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > From post #27: > > Chronos: “This was not done for anyone’s personal benefit, and so trying to make sense of it in those terms won’t work. It was done as an act of spite. **The purpose was to hurt people** , and it succeeded in that.” I’m sorry, but you said people are saying it was done “simply to hurt people” in a twirling mustache, kick the puppy, kind of way. Yes, it was done to hurt people (the mayor? the state senator?), knowing that it would also hurt the commuters. But it wasn’t done simply to hurt people – it was done out of spite or revenge or some other stupid, childish political reason. Do you understand the difference? Someone who was “simply evil”, as you mention upthread, may do something “simply to hurt people.” I claim that no one is claiming that. However, someone who is looking for some political revenge or something may do something that hurts people in order to get that revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/65 "2014-01-16T21:21:07Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It seems that the purpose of the bridge closure was to hurt a political opponent by hurting the voters in his area. If the voters then took out frustration on the political enemy, great. But mainly it was to hurt the people, thus showing the political enemy “don’t mess with us”. I see a logic disconnect in your statement. “If the voters then took out frustration on the political enemy, great.” But if not? It is pretty clear from people local to NJ posting in this thread that almost no one living there would blame the mayor for the problem that was clearly Port Authority’s. So - are you claiming that they wanted to hurt the people just for the sake of hurting the people, even if it didn’t hurt the “political enemy”? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/66 "2014-01-16T21:23:38Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m sorry, but you said people are saying it was done “simply to hurt people” in a twirling mustache, kick the puppy, kind of way. Yes, it was done to hurt people (the mayor? the state senator?) I give credit to Chronos for being able to express himself clearly. He certainly does that in other threads. If he meant hurting the mayor or the state senator, he would have said so. No. He said that THE purpose of the exercise was to hurt people. Not anyone in particular. Which is, as I pointed out, seriously stupid. > [@](#): > > But it wasn’t done simply to hurt people – it was done out of spite or revenge or some other stupid, childish political reason. Good. Now convince Chronos of that. > [@](#): > > Do you understand the difference? Someone who was “simply evil”, as you mention upthread, may do something “simply to hurt people.” I claim that no one is claiming that. You’re wrong. Chronos is. And that is the person to whom I was replying. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/67 "2014-01-16T21:33:04Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > We aren’t sure what the motive for hurting people was, but we are sure that the means included hurting people. Or is that point still in contention? Was it ever in contention? The claim in post #27 was that the _purpose_ was to “hurt” people and that is was an “act of spite”. Am I unique in finding “purpose” synonymous with “motive”? Maybe. But that post, to me, quite clearly conveyed the claim that the motive was to cause harm to (as later clarified) “motorists” and “the people of the city” and the “mayor.” Now, maybe by “hurt” we just mean “inconvenience and cause to rue the day they crossed the governor” but in that case it’s not merely an “act of spite.” And I don’t think that’s what you mean by “hurting people.” Is it? Am I missing something here? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/68 "2014-01-16T21:33:21Z")
It’s difficult to read texts like these and conclude that inconveniencing people was not the purpose. > [@redacted](#): > > Is it wrong that I’m smiling > [@Wildstein](#): > > No > [@redacted](#): > > I feel badly about the kids. I guess. > [@Wildstein](#): > > They are the children of Buono voters At best this is indifference to the traffic jam being a pain in the ass to people who didn’t do anything. It’s hardly worth this much quibbling. ---
**Author:** ![Bellhorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@Bellhorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bellhorn)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/69 "2014-01-16T21:39:21Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > That doesn’t make much sense either. Why would a traffic jam, that was supposed to be due to a temporary traffic study, damage a building project that hadn’t even broken ground yet? And why would Cristie and his staff want to sabotage a billion dollar project in NJ, especially while the economy is depressed relative to other states? Surely if they want to fuck over the Mayor\*, there must be less “cut off your nose to spite your face” ways available to them. > > And if Christie for some strange reason did want to screw over the project, surely the Governor has more effective ways of blocking such a thing then blocking traffic? > > \*(which itself is still kind of a stretch.) Steve Kornacki, of MSNBC and was/is from NJ, offered this as a more likely cause of the lanes being closed, on the Rachel Maddow Show. The funding for the redevelopment project has not been delayed (I think the resident portion has been completed, while the office buildings have not been started), and the attractiveness of the project depends upon the easy access to the GWB. It’s possible that this was an attempt to further delay, or scuttle altogether the funding, and thus open up the parcel for some other group. And raising further suspicion, were Christie’s remarks when the matter was first raised in December. The Governor asked why would Fort Lee have three lanes, anyway? And then, in an aside, said someone should look into this. That kind of comment could further jeopardize the funding for a project that relied on easy access to the GW Bridge. Some other developer, friend of Christie, or of someone in his office, may want to see the Fort Lee project go into default and then snatch it up at a bargain price. As Deep Throat once said to Woodward and Bernstein, “Follow the money.” ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/70 "2014-01-17T02:35:16Z")
> [@Bellhorn](#): > > Steve Kornacki, of MSNBC and was/is from NJ, offered this as a more likely cause of the lanes being closed, on the Rachel Maddow Show. The funding for the redevelopment project has not been delayed (I think the resident portion has been completed, while the office buildings have not been started), and the attractiveness of the project depends upon the easy access to the GWB. It’s possible that this was an attempt to further delay, or scuttle altogether the funding, and thus open up the parcel for some other group. Except again, its not clear why the traffic study would cause anyone to worry about the lanes being closed when the project was actually finished. If anything, the chaos from just three days of closure would presumably reassure investors those lanes weren’t going anywhere. > [@](#): > > Some other developer, friend of Christie, or of someone in his office, may want to see the Fort Lee project go into default and then snatch it up at a bargain price. The project costs a billion dollars. I don’t think anyone can “snatch something up” at that price. You need investors, building plans, permits, etc. If someone else was interested in the property and positioned to actually do something about it, I think the local Jersey press would already know about it. > [@](#): > > As Deep Throat once said to Woodward and Bernstein, “Follow the money.” And in this case, it doesn’t appear like anyone either gained or lost any money. There’s nothing to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/71 "2014-01-17T03:49:34Z")
So what does the sentence “Time for some traffic problems in Ft. Lee” mean, if not “we want to cause problems for Ft. Lee”? It is not speculation at this point to say that this was done to hurt people. We have the e-mails from the people who did it, stating why they did it, and the reason they stated was because they wanted to hurt people. This is a known fact, and there is no point arguing it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/72 "2014-01-17T04:17:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No we don’t. We know that they deliberately acted in a way that lead to people being hurt. There is a difference between the two statements. > > Those who closed those lanes very definitely had a purpose. It may have been to cause problems for the mayor. It may have been connected (as someone suggested) to some kind of real estate development. It may have been to cause problems for the Democratic leader in NJ whose district this was. I have no idea which one it was or if it was any of these. But it is stupid to suggest that the purpose (not the result, but the purpose) was simply to hurt people. That’s the idiotic hyperpartisan “my opponents are simply evil” dehumanizing crap that lefties so often employ. That seems like a pretty fine distinction. If hurting people had been merely incidental to some other reason for closing the bridge, I’d see where you might have a point. If, for example, somebody had offered them a bribe to close the bridge and they took the money and didn’t care whether or not it inconvenienced people. But it’s clear that their purpose for closing the bridge was to inconvenience people. The fact that they were inconveniencing people for a reason rather than just to be dicks seems rather trivial. Because regardless of their motive, their intent was to inconvenience people. And, as always, your claim that “lefties” are the ones who make blanket accusations is undercut by the fact that your claim is itself a blanket accusation. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/73 "2014-01-17T13:02:54Z")
> [@Bellhorn](#): > > Steve Kornacki, of MSNBC and was/is from NJ, offered this as a more likely cause of the lanes being closed, on the Rachel Maddow Show. The funding for the redevelopment project has not been delayed (I think the resident portion has been completed, while the office buildings have not been started), and the attractiveness of the project depends upon the easy access to the GWB. It’s possible that this was an attempt to further delay, or scuttle altogether the funding, and thus open up the parcel for some other group. Perhaps the motive was simply to scuttle the project so that the Fort Lee politicians couldn’t get credit for economic development. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/74 "2014-01-17T13:40:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That seems like a pretty fine distinction. This is strange to me. Is it really just my political leanings that cause me to draw a meaningful distinction between the “why” and the “how”? It doesn’t strike me as entirely academic either. For example, if **Chronos** is that that the motive was spite and the purpose was harm to the motorists or the city, then I find it substantially less likely that Christie was personally involved or even aware. I have no trouble believing him capable of heavy-handed intimidation, but damage for damage’s sake? ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/75 "2014-01-17T15:38:32Z")
Marley-I use the RIDE, a subsidiary of the MBTA (our local transportation authority), to get places. I couldn’t pick the head of the RIDE or MBTA out of a line-up. I suspect that’s true of most Bostonians. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/76 "2014-01-17T15:39:28Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Marley-I use the RIDE, a subsidiary of the MBTA (our local transportation authority), to get places. I couldn’t pick the head of the RIDE or MBTA out of a line-up. I suspect that’s true of most Bostonians. We’re not talking about naming the head of the agency. We’re talking about having heard of the agency at all. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/77 "2014-01-17T15:40:48Z")
BTW, to more broadly contribute to the discussion: this got national traction because it’s the busiest stretch of HW on Earth, under the jurisdiction of a potential Presidential candidate. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/78 "2014-01-17T15:51:23Z")
Marley, the 1st thing a Bostonian would say if you asked if they were familiar with the MBTA is,“Oh, you mean ‘the T’?”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/79 "2014-01-17T15:52:00Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880/80 "2014-01-17T15:56:21Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Marley-I use the RIDE, a subsidiary of the MBTA (our local transportation authority), to get places. I couldn’t pick the head of the RIDE or MBTA out of a line-up. I suspect that’s true of most Bostonians. True, but when the T turns into a mess I would not ever think to blame the Mayor of Cambridge. I wouldn’t even blame the Mayor of Boston. Heck, even with the closing of the Longfellow Bridge and all the traffic that causes, the mayors aren’t on my radar at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bridgegate-question/678880.md?page=5)