# Brief history, with scores and commentary, of French Warfare. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361 "2003-02-16T02:34:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/61 "2003-02-19T00:04:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The\_Stranger \* > **[side note] > I would like to know the individual responsible for the idea of opening the dikes during the Dutch wars of 1672-1678- brilliantly simple idea. > [side note]** Sorry I can’t be more specific, as there are no sources for who acutally proposed to flood the surroundings of Amsterdam, but it happened under the _Stadhouderschap_ of [Jan de Witt](http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/Nethrlds_History.asp), who didn’t live very long to enjoy the brilliance of that strategic move. It’s been a tactic ever since, actually. Ground troops do very poorly in water, and making them swim is an excellent way to incapacitate them when your country has the potential to be half underwater anyway. As recent as WWII, [the dykes were destroyed to incapacitate the enemy](http://www.vims.edu/~jeff/asl/walchern.htm), in this case by the RAF no less. It worked once more. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/62 "2003-02-19T01:23:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Sorry I can’t be more specific, as there are no sources for who acutally proposed to flood the surroundings of Amsterdam, but it happened under the _Stadhouderschap_ of [Jan de Witt](http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/Nethrlds_History.asp), who didn’t live very long to enjoy the brilliance of that strategic move. \*\* How does that impact agriculture? I assume farm land is innundated, at least to some degree. Does it salt the soil? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/63 "2003-02-19T01:36:14Z")
Yes it does - ruins at least _this_ year’s crop. But when the enemy’s at the gates, that’s a small price to pay, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/64 "2003-02-19T01:40:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Yes it does - ruins at least _this_ year’s crop. But when the enemy’s at the gates, that’s a small price to pay, isn’t it? \*\* Yes, especially if the enemy could forage from it. But there is no long term harm I gather (?). That suprises me. IIRC, each year as much farm land is lost to salination from improper irrigation as is brought under new cultivation from irrigation–and that’s with unsalted water. I would have thought the water of the Atlantic would have done a number on the farm land. Live and learn! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stranger\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@The\_Stranger\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stranger_1)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/65 "2003-02-19T01:41:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Ground troops do very poorly in water, and making them swim is an excellent way to incapacitate them when your country has the potential to be half underwater anyway One of my duties while in the Marine Corps was to teach “Combat Water Survival” ([MOS 8563](http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/marineenjobs/bl8563.htm))…I am always interested in strategies that involve infantry units and water. [This is a link to the U.S. Marine Corps order dealing with water survival, _Very_ DRY reading!](http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/gtb/draft/ITS/MCWST.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/66 "2003-02-19T01:44:50Z")
JS, I’ll admit it: I have no clue how the farm lands were affected. All I assumed that the growing crop would be wasted. I have no idea how long it takes for farm land to “heal” from completely being drowned in salt water. Might be years, decades for all I know. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/67 "2003-02-19T02:17:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by js\_africanus \* > How does that impact agriculture? I assume farm land is innundated, at least to some degree. Does it salt the soil? Like **Coldfire** noted, it does, yeah. It really is a last-ditch defense. However it appears to recover eventually. Also at least in 1672, we’re not talking a huge chunk of the country and it appears that some of the water released was fresh(ish) from the Netherlands rivers ( or at least the Waal and Lek ). So a quick quote ( emphasis added ): \*Holland was saved, initially, by sheer luck, and subsequently by effectively innudating the stretch of terrain, the so-called water-line, running from Muiden, in front of Amsterdam, on the Zuider Zee, via Bodegraven, ( where the Prince established his headquarters ), and Schoohoven, to Gorcum on the Waal… …Over the next fortnight the French could have still crossed the ‘water-line’; for although the dikes and sluices were opened - **after some resistance, particularly around Gorcum, from armed peasants reluctant to see their land ruined** - the water level rose only slowly owing to the dry summer months.\* From the book I cited earlier in this thread. If you look at a map, you’ll see that this is roughly rectangular chunk of land in the central Netherlands, cutting Holland off from Brabant and Geldre to the south and east. From the context above, I would also assume that the ‘dry summer months’ comment refer to the low-level of the rivers, as such would obviously have less of an impact on the sea-level. And note the armed opposition to the loss of farmland. So it was a drastic tactic. But it worked :). **The\_Stranger** : No worries :). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/68 "2003-02-19T02:36:05Z")
Oh and I should probably make another slight correction to my earlier big post. I said France got ‘absolutely nothing’ from the Dutch War. Actually, they did get a few tiny globs of territory from the Spanish Netherlands ( aka Belgium ), like Vanciennes. But we really are talking itsy chunks - Hardly worth six years of warfare. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![tourbot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@tourbot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tourbot)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/69 "2003-02-19T19:22:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chandeleur \* > \*\*Well, since we’re just [funnin’](http://www.pizzaladifference.com/Google.jpg) \*\* Actually, googling French Military victories turns up 57,600 pages. French Military defeats gives 27,300 results, the third of which is a link to the article in the OP (also unattributed). And why is that doctored google.jpg being hosted on a website for a pizza restaurant which appears to be in France? ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/70 "2003-02-19T22:05:28Z")
Oh Oh! I have another example of the “cheese surrendering monkeys” ineptitude for warfare. 732 (of our era) The muslim conquered all of europe because the cowardly french were unable to stop them in Poiters. Damm Charles Martel!!! For those of you who didn’t get the joke (Yes, I mean you The stranger) follow this link: [http://www.owecc.net/crunyon/261C/10-MiddleAges/EarlyMedTL.html](http://www.owecc.net/crunyon/261C/10-MiddleAges/EarlyMedTL.html) (best one I could find). ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/71 "2003-02-19T22:29:01Z")
Dear god if you allow me to post a workable link I’ll promise I will be a good boy: [Try this one](http://www.lbdb.com/TMDisplayBattle.cfm?BID=250) ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/72 "2003-02-19T22:34:32Z")
I promise I will be a good boy ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/73 "2003-02-19T22:48:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > **. Actually, they did get a few tiny globs of territory from the Spanish Netherlands ( aka Belgium ), like Vanciennes. But we really are talking itsy chunks - Hardly worth six years of warfare.** Well, Spain did cede Franche-Comte to them, so I wouldn’t call that an itsy chunk, and a few years later, Louis was able to take a bunch of land, unopposed, including Metz, Luxembourg, Lorraine, Saarbrucken, and Trier. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/74 "2003-02-19T23:08:46Z")
So, actually, I’d call France the winner of the Dutch war, because they gained the most from fighting it. They gained Burgundy, a more defensable border and a bunch of Imperial border cities, The United Provinces gained assurances of neutrality, in England, Parliament gained power at the expense of Charles, paving the way for the Civil War, and Spain was forced to surrender territory. So, I’d say France comes out the big winner there. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/75 "2003-02-19T23:13:56Z")
**Captain Amazing** : Yep, right again - That’s what I get for using a Dutch-focused source :). So we can upgrade France’s standing in that one as well. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/76 "2003-02-19T23:15:21Z")
Simulpost ;). ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/77 "2003-02-19T23:42:53Z")
I wonder why the quoted article leaves out the Crimean War. France was on the winning side in that one. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/78 "2003-02-20T00:18:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I wonder why the quoted article leaves out the Crimean War. France was on the winning side in that one. – **Amok** …And, the Russians concentrated virtually all of their attacks against France’s British allies because the French troops were clearly superior to anyone else on the scene. As an American (who also enjoys an occasional friendly jab at our _friends_ and _first allies_) I’m starting to get seriously embarassed about this sort of horse shit. France is a proud, powerful, and highly autonomous country–just like my own. We oughta be ashamed to be slurring them when we obviously have so much in common, obnoxiousness being among the more visible commonalities I happen to see these days. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/79 "2003-02-20T05:23:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*JS, I’ll admit it: I have no clue how the farm lands were affected. All I assumed that the growing crop would be wasted. I have no idea how long it takes for farm land to “heal” from completely being drowned in salt water. Might be years, decades for all I know. \*\* No sweat. Sounds like it was river, i.e. fresh, water from **tamerlane** ’s post. I was merely curious. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361/80 "2003-02-20T10:29:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tourbot \* > \*\*And why is that doctored google.jpg being hosted on a website for a pizza restaurant which appears to be in France? \*\* Because it’s not in France. Aylmer, Gatineau and Hull are in Canada, more specifically western Québec, close to Ottawa. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brief-history-with-scores-and-commentary-of-french-warfare/155361.md?page=5)