# Bringing a dog to crowded public places **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 23, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808 "2010-09-23T20:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/21 "2010-09-24T03:18:28Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > [trivia]Did you know that more French soldiers died in World War I than US soldiers in all the wars that the US has ever fought?[/trivia] Sorry - no offense intended. I know it’s a tired old joke, but in the context of dogs I thought it’d get a laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/22 "2010-09-24T04:00:12Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Without commenting on what actually happened, I’d say that in a hypothetical situation in which a large dog is charging a police officer that officer is totally correct in using his firearm to stop the animal. There is absolutely no reason for him to risk personal injury by fighting the dog with a fucking club or using spray (the spray probably wouldn’t stop the animal at all). If a person is charging a cop with a knife I don’t want the cop to fuck around with a club or spray. A club’s penetrating power to travel farther into the crowd of bystanders is pretty poor. I will comment on what witnesses say actually happened, and on the very clear photo accompanying the article. “A hypothetical situation in which a large dog is charging a police officer” is indeed hypothetical and did not happen in this case, so it’s about as relevant as asserting the animal was actually a werewolf and that justifies the shooting (which is to say, it’s not relevant). Never mind what the foster caretaker said…if you look at the photo you’ll see Officer Fike kneeling with his full weight on the dog. The dog is completely pinned, under total control, and submitting. No firearm is needed at that point. It was at that point that the officer threw him down a stairwell, drew his weapon, and executed him. You can see in the photo that no charging situation is occurring. Also, police _claim_ the dog bit three people, a claim which only one bystander has supported – by the weirdest coincidence, that bystander is a _retired_ police officer. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/23 "2010-09-24T04:10:01Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > He said he separated the two dogs – cutting his hand inside Parrot’s mouth in the process – and was subduing his dog when police arrived. > > So, the cop sees a man “subduing” a dog on the ground, and blood. (possibly a hand inside a dog’s mouth?), plus a second dog, badly mauled. Maybe he mistook the situation as the opposite, and thought the dog was still the aggressor? After all, I’m not so sure a dog’s tongue is so dexterous as to hold something sharp, and I’m not so sure what else would cut a hand inside a dog’s mouth besides the teeth. Yeah, the “cutting his hand in the dog’s mouth” comment is certainly the weakest point in the foster handler’s story. It’s the element that’s worried me the most about supporting that side of the story, although on balance I still do. > [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Not that the cop would know the dog’s history at the time of the incident, but what was the foster person thinking, taking a foster dog of unknown history, and it sounds like untested, into a situation where the dog may have a problem with other animals or children? But the dog did _not_ have any problems with children. Dog aggression is not the same thing as human aggression at all. Dogs can tell very clearly who is human and who is a dog. That breed of dog (pit bulls) is famously solid and well-behaved with children; a century ago they were called “the nanny dog.” It seems like a gratuitous insertion of “think of the children!” to bring it up. No one is worried the poodle in the story might have had a problem with children, are they? Yet my sister’s poodle is registered with Animal Control as a dangerous dog. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/24 "2010-09-24T04:10:11Z")
**Sailboat** , I agree with everything you said in regards to this event. My issue was that if in a hypothetical situation where a large dog was actually going after a cop that cop would be justified in using his firearm, something **Diosa** disagreed with. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/25 "2010-09-24T05:20:47Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > But the dog did _not_ have any problems with children. Dog aggression is not the same thing as human aggression at all. Dogs can tell very clearly who is human and who is a dog. That breed of dog (pit bulls) is famously solid and well-behaved with children; a century ago they were called “the nanny dog.” It seems like a gratuitous insertion of “think of the children!” to bring it up. No one is worried the poodle in the story might have had a problem with children, are they? Yet my sister’s poodle is registered with Animal Control as a dangerous dog. My comment wasn’t an attempt at breedism, I’m in the same camp as you are on that point. I have too many friends, acquaintances and coworkers with pitties to have any negative stance. My comment wasn’t made with the breed of the dog in mind at all, actually. I was including children in the mix making an assumption that since the dog was taken out to a public place, having been untested for dog aggression, that he was also untested for problems with children, food, and strangers in general. Whether a dog is untested for crowded situations has nothing to do with the breed - there are many more Labs I would muzzle before I would a Pit. My comment was more along the lines of wondering what the foster person was thinking, taking an untested dog into a crowded event. A food aggressive but not people aggressive dog could still snap at a hand trying to retrieve a dropped carnival food if the dog already decided it was his, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/26 "2010-09-24T06:57:04Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > First, I must say I disagree with the outcome of this event. The cop was wrong. However, I wonder if he made an assumption about what was happening between the dog’s foster parent and the dog, based on this: > > > [@](#): > > > > He said he separated the two dogs – cutting his hand inside Parrot’s mouth in the process – and was subduing his dog when police arrived. > > So, the cop sees a man “subduing” a dog on the ground, and blood. (possibly a hand inside a dog’s mouth?), plus a second dog, badly mauled. Maybe he mistook the situation as the opposite, and thought the dog was still the aggressor? After all, I’m not so sure a dog’s tongue is so dexterous as to hold something sharp, and I’m not so sure what else would cut a hand inside a dog’s mouth besides the teeth. > > Not that the cop would know the dog’s history at the time of the incident, but what was the foster person thinking, taking a foster dog of unknown history, and it sounds like untested, into a situation where the dog may have a problem with other animals or children? I’m not trying to set blame here, what happened was unconscionable, but it does sound like a recipe for a possible unfavorable outcome. > > I’ll also admit I have had issues with inexperienced foster people who think they know what they are getting into when they have no idea and think they know best. So I’m a little jaded. If the dog had mauled another animal and attacked it’s owner then that’s all the history the police officer needs to know to assume the dog is dangerous and not in control. However, discharging a weapon in a crowded area sounds incredibly dangerous. Beyond that I’m not a huge fan of dogs at street events. There is no place for them to relieve themselves and there is a high likelihood that a pack animal will behave accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/27 "2010-09-24T07:03:01Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > > [@smaje1](#): > > > > I lived in Paris for a little while, and I was really surprised by the nonchalance there about bringing dogs to public places. I once had a german shepherd jump partially into my lap (trying to get at my food) at a really nice restaurant there, and I was shocked that no one seemed to care. > > You expected the french to stand up against the actions of a german? You expect an American to stand up without the help of a crane ? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/28 "2010-09-24T08:06:41Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@scifisam2009](#): > > > > Wow, that makes it even worse that they shot the dog - at an event like that, you’d have to expect a scrap or two, to be dealt with as this one seems to have been before the shooting. What dishonest reporting. > > Okay, having read the first page, it looks like one source of confusion is that the shooting occurred at the Adams Morgan Day Festival, causing the reporter in question to get a story idea about dogs at public events, for which he/she interviewed people, one of whom talked about an unrelated incident at the Takoma Park Farmer’s Market, and led off the article with that. The OP linked both articles and maybe confused the two events (not that the Post clearly distinguishes them, but it doesn’t appear to be a deliberate lie. Not that the Adams Morgan shooting had much at all to do with a dog bothering people, mind you.) The way the article has confused the two festivals is a deliberate lie. Perhaps the foster owner was wrong to take that dog to that event, but the only way to find out how the dog copes with crowds and with other dogs is to take them there. FWIW, regarding the breed, the police say the dog was a pitbull and the owner says it was a shar-pei. It doesn’t really make any meaningful difference, but those are rather different breeds, so that’s a bit odd. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/29 "2010-09-24T10:32:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > > > First, I must say I disagree with the outcome of this event. The cop was wrong. However, I wonder if he made an assumption about what was happening between the dog’s foster parent and the dog, based on this: > > > > So, the cop sees a man “subduing” a dog on the ground, and blood. (possibly a hand inside a dog’s mouth?), plus a second dog, badly mauled. Maybe he mistook the situation as the opposite, and thought the dog was still the aggressor? After all, I’m not so sure a dog’s tongue is so dexterous as to hold something sharp, and I’m not so sure what else would cut a hand inside a dog’s mouth besides the teeth. > > > > Not that the cop would know the dog’s history at the time of the incident, but what was the foster person thinking, taking a foster dog of unknown history, and it sounds like untested, into a situation where the dog may have a problem with other animals or children? I’m not trying to set blame here, what happened was unconscionable, but it does sound like a recipe for a possible unfavorable outcome. > > > > I’ll also admit I have had issues with inexperienced foster people who think they know what they are getting into when they have no idea and think they know best. So I’m a little jaded. > > If the dog had mauled another animal and attacked it’s owner then that’s all the history the police officer needs to know to assume the dog is dangerous and not in control. However, discharging a weapon in a crowded area sounds incredibly dangerous. > > Beyond that I’m not a huge fan of dogs at street events. There is no place for them to relieve themselves and there is a high likelihood that a pack animal will behave accordingly. In the two instances I have seen one dog attack another in public setting (a park and a craft fair) it was a pit bull going after a smaller dog. Pits are always the sweetest, most loveable dogs until they decide to shred something and God help anyone in the way. If a police officer decides that a pit bull represents a deadly threat that needs to be put down I’m generally going to trust his on the scene judgement vs armchair quarterbacking about how his threat assessment should have been more sensitive and nuanced. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/30 "2010-09-24T11:10:13Z")
> [@astro](#): > > In the two instances I have seen one dog attack another in public setting (a park and a craft fair) it was a pit bull going after a smaller dog. Pits are always the sweetest, most loveable dogs until they decide to shred something and God help anyone in the way. If a police officer decides that a pit bull represents a deadly threat that needs to be put down I’m generally going to trust his on the scene judgement vs armchair quarterbacking about how his threat assessment should have been more sensitive and nuanced. This is why the police are saying it’s a pit bull, makes it easier to get the public on side with what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/31 "2010-09-24T12:51:13Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > This is why the police are saying it’s a pit bull, makes it easier to get the public on side with what happened. There’s also the manliness factor. It’s _manly_ to duel with a pit bull. No cop wants to brag, “Yeah, I shot a freakin’ Shar Pei, and I’d do it again. I don’t wear this uniform to get _wrinkles_ on it.” In general, dangerous animals get over-reported. I tend to doubt the world is filled with as many rattlesnakes, copperheads, and black widow spiders as various acquaintances have breathlessly described. Would the proper term be “threat inflation?” ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/32 "2010-09-24T12:56:31Z")
I just came home from a week in Europe and saw dogs everywhere, on the street, in stores and restaurants and cafes. What I didn’t see was the slightest interaction between any dogs and any people. I can honestly say that I did not see one dog owner speak to or pet or even look at his or her dog, and that is out of at least a hundred dogs I saw in the streets of Vienna, Munich, and Salzburg. I did see dogs being dragged along by their leashes faster than they could even walk. Our dogs were being boarded at home, and I missed them very much, so I was glad to see dogs, as I always am; at home, when we have our dogs out in public, we can hardly walk a few dozen yards without someone approaching us and asking about them, telling us how cute they are, asking their names, etc. I did not attempt anything like that, but in the beginning, I was greeting the dogs with a “Hello, Sweetheart!” as I do at home, with the result of a suspicious look from the owner, who hurried away even faster. No eye contact from the dog, ever. I think the reason dogs are accepted in public in Europe is that they are seen as accessories, like handbags. In America they are members of the family. I felt sorry for every dog I saw in Europe. They may be out with their people, but their people are not out with them. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/33 "2010-09-24T13:41:53Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Sorry - no offense intended. I know it’s a tired old joke, but in the context of dogs I thought it’d get a laugh. No offense taken, I’m not even French. I will admit that I’m puzzled whenever I see those jokes, because I just don’t get where the original idea comes from. I’ve read once (I think at the SDMB) that it all started with Groundskeeper Willie on the Simpsons taken about the “cheese-eating surrender monkeys”. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/34 "2010-09-24T14:28:46Z")
One more reason, I no longer own pets. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/35 "2010-09-24T15:03:08Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > > [@Munch](#): > > > > Sorry - no offense intended. I know it’s a tired old joke, but in the context of dogs I thought it’d get a laugh. > > No offense taken, I’m not even French. I will admit that I’m puzzled whenever I see those jokes, because I just don’t get where the original idea comes from. I’ve read once (I think at the SDMB) that it all started with Groundskeeper Willie on the Simpsons taken about the “cheese-eating surrender monkeys”. It’s much older than the Simpsons - I’ve been hearing & telling jokes about French courage since grade school. It’s pretty simple - in WWI, France & allies held back the Germans for 4 years. In WWII, France surrendered within six weeks. It’s easy to make jokes. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/36 "2010-09-24T15:21:36Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > I just came home from a week in Europe and saw dogs everywhere, on the street, in stores and restaurants and cafes. What I didn’t see was the slightest interaction between any dogs and any people. I can honestly say that I did not see one dog owner speak to or pet or even look at his or her dog, and that is out of at least a hundred dogs I saw in the streets of Vienna, Munich, and Salzburg. I did see dogs being dragged along by their leashes faster than they could even walk. > > Our dogs were being boarded at home, and I missed them very much, so I was glad to see dogs, as I always am; at home, when we have our dogs out in public, we can hardly walk a few dozen yards without someone approaching us and asking about them, telling us how cute they are, asking their names, etc. I did not attempt anything like that, but in the beginning, I was greeting the dogs with a “Hello, Sweetheart!” as I do at home, with the result of a suspicious look from the owner, who hurried away even faster. No eye contact from the dog, ever. > > I think the reason dogs are accepted in public in Europe is that they are seen as accessories, like handbags. In America they are members of the family. I felt sorry for every dog I saw in Europe. They may be out with their people, but their people are not out with them. Huh. That’s the precise opposite of what I’ve seen - in Europe, the dogs I witnessed are seen as companions who go everywhere with you, while in the States, IF a dog is out & about in public it’s often (not always!) the “handbag/accessory” routine. Cuz, y’know, the U.S. and Europe are such teeny-tiny areas that you and I can generalize _snaps fingers_ just like that. 😉 I’m not arguing with you at all, for the record .. we’ve just apparently seen responsible dog owners in different corners of the world! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/37 "2010-09-24T15:27:44Z")
I remember being in France and it seemed more like you describe, **purplehorseshoe**. In one restaurant, the diners brought their dog and the waiter cooed and made a little fuss over the dog, the same way a waiter in the States might about a cute baby. ---
**Author:** ![Gulo\_gulo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bcef8e/32.png) [@Gulo\_gulo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gulo_gulo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/38 "2010-09-24T16:04:48Z")
For me & my dog, it depends on the ‘crowd’. If it’s a Farmer’s Market, there’s no chance I’d bring that walking stomach since she’d be too intent on helping herself. I’ve taken her to an art fair and she did wonderfully although it took us forever to peruse the stalls due to all the people showering affection on her. She also has a great time at SCA events. In a packed crowd like a street fair, I’d leave her at home. If she ever shows anything other than “OMG I\<3U” towards people & other dogs, she’ll stay at home. She’s a big dog (75lbs) so when we’re in public she wears a gentle leader so I can turn her head before she gooses someone or tries to sneak a lick at a toddler’s ice cream cone. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/39 "2010-09-24T16:18:01Z")
I wouldn’t bring mine. But I’m hesitant to bring small children into crowded places, much less dogs. Crowds are just difficult for living beings existing below the adult waist. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808/40 "2010-09-24T16:25:53Z")
The usual crappy reporting from the Post. They’ve conflated two stories, included pictures from a completely unrelated event and then told the store from two different points of view, just offering other’s opinions with no useful content added. In general I don’t like seeing dogs at such events and I love dogs. The little dogs are hard to avoid stepping on, and can be aggressive. The big dogs often seem barely under control and I could see how people with dog issues wouldn’t like them. The farmer’s markets I go to in DC and Northern Virginia have signs posted saying no dogs allowed. What that means that the entire outer boundary is choked with dogs, right up to the edge of the signage and sometimes over the line. People seem compeled to bring their dogs to show them off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-a-dog-to-crowded-public-places/554808.md?page=3)