# Bringing Guns to Obama Appearances -- Trouble waiting to Happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848 "2009-08-18T15:23:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/1 "2009-08-18T15:23:16Z")
This is a disturbing trend. People have been bringing open-carry guns to Obama appearances, saying that they’re simply exercising their constitutional tights. But bringing firearms to a highly-charged political situation seems to me to be a disaster waiting to happen. To tell the truth, I think that bring large numbers of loaded firearms to a “My Little Pony” rally smacks of trouble. it’s not like a Gun Show, where differences of opinion aren’t as likely and the focus is on safety. To make matters worse, at a recent rally we had this: > [@](#): > > Last week, during Obama’s health care town hall in Portsmouth, N.H., a man carrying a sign reading “It is time to water the tree of liberty” stood outside with a pistol strapped to his leg. > “It’s a political statement,” he told The Boston Globe. “If you don’t use your rights, then you lose your rights.” > Police asked the man to move away from school property, but he was not arrested. The report didn’t expand upon this, but the quote is from Jefferson. While most folks recall the bit about the Tree of Liberty needing to be watereed with the blood of patriots, the actual quote is a bit longer: > [@](#): > > 1787 Nov. 13. “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” (to W. S. Smith, B.12.356) I doubt if he was suggesting that patriot’s blood was needed. The clear implication is that Obama is the Tyrant. And this guy had the gun. I think that’s as close to a threat as you can get without the Secret Service taking a keen interest in you. From the first article: > [@](#): > > Phoenix police said the gun-toters at Monday’s event, including the man carrying an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle slung over his shoulder, didn’t need permits. No crimes were committed, and no one was arrested. > The man with the rifle declined to be identified but told The Arizona Republic that he was carrying the assault weapon because he could. “In Arizona, I still have some freedoms,” he said. “I still have some freedoms”. Huh. Does this trend bother anyone else? Heck, when Bush was president they didn’t want you near him unless you agreed with his philosophy. I wonder how his crowd-control would have reacted if Democrats had showed up with unconcealed carry guns. > **[News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines](https://www.aol.com/news/)** > > Get breaking news and the latest headlines on business, entertainment, politics, world news, tech, sports, videos and much more from AOL > **[Search | Jefferson Quotes & Family Letters](https://tjrs.monticello.org/archive/search/quotes?field_tjrs_categorization_tid%5B%5D=2169)** ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/2 "2009-08-18T15:34:05Z")
Although I used the Search feature, it missed the Pit thread on this: [http://www.monticello.org/reports/quotes/liberty.html](http://www.monticello.org/reports/quotes/liberty.html) and I didn’t realize from the title that this was abvout the same incident. Sorry about that. I’m still bugged by this. It doesn’t matter that no laws have been broken – it’s definitely a bad situation, and one that should be denounced by all sides. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/3 "2009-08-18T15:37:32Z")
None of these people had any problems when Bush protesters were herded into “free speech zones.” Perhaps we could set up “free carry zones.” Everyone could bring their guns, and anytime someone walked by wearing a black hat they could fill that person full of holes. ---
**Author:** ![Erasmus\_Darwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@Erasmus\_Darwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erasmus_Darwin)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/4 "2009-08-18T15:41:15Z")
From the article: > [@](#): > > Secret Service spokesman Ed Donovan said armed demonstrators in open-carry states such as Arizona and New Hampshire have little impact on security plans for the president. > > “In both cases, the subject was not entering our site or otherwise attempting to,” Donovan said. “They were in a designated public viewing area. The main thing to know is that they would not have been allowed inside with a weapon.” If the Secret Service is unconcerned, I’m not going to worry, either. I think it’s also worth pointing out the complete lack of actual violence associated with the protesters. It’s not the people legally demonstrating outside the event that should be a major concern – it’s your lone nutcase or violent extremists that are the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/5 "2009-08-18T15:43:10Z")
Trouble waiting to happen if tempers flare in the crowd, maybe. Probably not a thread to Obama because someone who really wanted to kill him would not display a gun. [One interesting point as this relates to Obama:](http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/18/obama.protest.rifle/index.html) > [@](#): > > The individuals would never have gotten close to the president, regardless of any state laws on openly carrying weapons, [U.S. Secret Service spokesman Ed Donovan] said. A venue is considered a federal site when the Secret Service is protecting the president, and weapons are not allowed on a federal site, he said. I’m only a little worried about something happening. Mostly I find it irritating because of the implied threat and the absurdity of the protests themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/6 "2009-08-18T15:50:10Z")
Interesting. So there really _are_ “free carry zones”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/7 "2009-08-18T15:59:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Interesting. So there really _are_ “free carry zones”. Doesn’t sound quite the same to me. I thought the free speech zones were fenced in and designed to be far from the president and his supporters. This sounds like more of “as long as you’re not inside the building and not too close to the president, you can carry openly in front of everyone.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/8 "2009-08-18T16:17:36Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > None of these people had any problems when Bush protesters were herded into “free speech zones.” Perhaps we could set up “free carry zones.” Everyone could bring their guns, and anytime someone walked by wearing a black hat they could fill that person full of holes. > [@](#): > > “In both cases, the subject was not entering our site or otherwise attempting to,” Donovan said. “They were in a designated public viewing area. The main thing to know is that they would not have been allowed inside with a weapon.” Looks like they WERE in free carry zones. ETA: Or, what marley23 already said… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/9 "2009-08-18T16:21:02Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It doesn’t matter that no laws have been broken – it’s definitely a bad situation, and one that should be denounced by all sides. Disagree. As long as the Secret Service is happy with the security situation, I’m not inclined to denounce people for showing their Second Amendment rights. Your sentiment seems to be that the First Amendment is sacrosant, but the Second Amendment should be read as advisory and desultory, somehow. Sorry – don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/10 "2009-08-18T16:26:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Your sentiment seems to be that the First Amendment is sacrosant, but the Second Amendment should be read as advisory and desultory, somehow. Sorry – don’t agree. I question your reading of this situation. If people brought guns to presidential events while gun control legislation was being debated, I’d be uncomfortable with it - and it would probably be counterproductive - but it would at least make some sense. When guys bring guns to _health care events_ and start going on about how tyranny is afoot and their rights are under attack, it’s hard not to read it as an implied threat. And they come across as crazy. Crazy’s unnerving; armed and crazy makes people sweat. ---
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/11 "2009-08-18T16:29:35Z")
My how things have changed. Just 4 years ago, people were kicked out of a Bush rally in Denver because of the [bumper sticker](http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5106705,00.html)on their car!!! I guess the risks posed by armed protestors pales in comparison to the risk of contrary views, as expressed through a bumper sticker. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/12 "2009-08-18T16:32:30Z")
Probably gonna get flamed for this, but… I see these people as similar to those who choose not to wear motorcycle helmets in states where that is permitted. I know people who do so only because it is their right, and it somehow makes them feel more free. They are both perfectly within their rights, and extremely stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/13 "2009-08-18T16:35:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Disagree. As long as the Secret Service is happy with the security situation, I’m not inclined to denounce people for showing their Second Amendment rights. Your sentiment seems to be that the First Amendment is sacrosant, but the Second Amendment should be read as advisory and desultory, somehow. Sorry – don’t agree. There are no qualifiers on the First Amendment. Conversely, the Second Amendment draws a clear distinction between “a well-regulated militia” and private ownership. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/14 "2009-08-18T16:41:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Disagree. As long as the Secret Service is happy with the security situation, I’m not inclined to denounce people for showing their Second Amendment rights. Your sentiment seems to be that the First Amendment is sacrosant, but the Second Amendment should be read as advisory and desultory, somehow. Sorry – don’t agree. Except if you really are concerned about gun rights, one day one of these knuckleheads is going to get into a scuffle and shots are going to be fired, and federal gun control legislation is going to be passed about five minutes later. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/15 "2009-08-18T16:53:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There are no qualifiers on the First Amendment. > > Conversely, the Second Amendment draws a clear distinction between “a well-regulated militia” and private ownership. No, it doesn’t. Unless you’re suggesting that we look only to the words on the page, and not to any Supreme Court rulings on the subject. If that’s indeed your proposed approach, then I’ll concede the Second Amendment argument while you concede that Roe v. Wade has no validity. But you can hardly point piously to the specific, limited text of the Second Amendment while simultaneously averring that the right to abortion is a valid constitutional creature. From _DC v. Heller_’s headnotes: > [@](#): > > The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/16 "2009-08-18T17:04:25Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Except if you really are concerned about gun rights, one day one of these knuckleheads is going to get into a scuffle and shots are going to be fired, and federal gun control legislation is going to be passed about five minutes later. The KKK should still get to march in Skokie. By that I mean that freedom is about punishing people for what they do, not their ideas or what they might do. I dread your prediction coming to pass, but I’m not about to say that the cure is to restrict the very freedom that, if abused, may trigger a terrible backlash against freedom. If another group of Arab terrorists does something terrible with an airplane, we may see a surge in attempts to racially profile airline travellers. But the solution to that isn’t to discourage Arabs from flying on planes. When that’s the argument, you nod vigorously, because you know that the vast majority of Arabs are no threat whatsoever, and because this country should not be about prejudging people based on their national origin. But turn the issue into an exercise of Second Amendment rights, and suddenly the support for the law-abiding many withers away and the willingness to restrict them in support of nebulous public safety goals increases sharply. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/17 "2009-08-18T17:07:00Z")
For sanity’s sake, nobody call it an “assault rifle”! ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/18 "2009-08-18T17:08:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > From _DC v. Heller_’s headnotes: It’s going to take a while for that to sink in, I think. They are all stuck in a rut with their old arguments. 🙂 IIRC, the man was standing on private property, with permission. That puts it in a completely different category than some other examples given here, where people were either on public property or private property without permission. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/19 "2009-08-18T17:08:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Unless you’re suggesting that we look only to the words on the page, and not to any Supreme Court rulings on the subject. If that’s indeed your proposed approach, then I’ll concede the Second Amendment argument while you concede that Roe v. Wade has no validity. But you can hardly point piously to the specific, limited text of the Second Amendment while simultaneously averring that the right to abortion is a valid constitutional creature. > > From _DC v. Heller_’s headnotes: > > > [@](#): > > > > The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia… While I agree with your argument generally, you might want to pick a better example. Carry and possess are very different concepts under the law. _Heller_ doesn’t address restrictions on carry, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/20 "2009-08-18T17:20:48Z")
> [@Erasmus\_Darwin](#): > > I think it’s also worth pointing out the complete lack of actual violence associated with the protesters. It’s not the people legally demonstrating outside the event that should be a major concern – it’s your lone nutcase or violent extremists that are the problem. And if that lone nutcase or violent extremist happens to be standing next to the guy with the gun and decides to grab it and try to use it? Even if he doesn’t actually get as far as aiming and firing at the godless death-panel-loving socialist traitors, the gun could go off in a struggle over it and hit anyone nearby. Very, very bad idea to bring a loaded weapon into such an emotionally charged, potentially volatile situation. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848.md?page=2)