# Bringing Guns to Obama Appearances -- Trouble waiting to Happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848 "2009-08-18T15:23:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/61 "2009-08-19T00:55:30Z")
Or it was the reiteration of a common slogan that happened to be carried by someone who also happened to be a gun enthusiast? No causal relationship is indicated, in my opinion. Also, if there was a death threat involved, the Secret Service would have been involved. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/62 "2009-08-19T01:19:19Z")
> [@StaudtCJ](#): > > I don’t understand why the gun thing is an issue. I have a pistol. I usually carry it anywhere I’m permitted, which means anywhere that doesn’t sell alcohol or have a sign, generally. I don’t carry concealed, though I could. If I went to a rally of whatever type, I’d have my pistol, in plain sight but holstered, for no other reason than I usually carry it. The sign I carry would have nothing to do with my firearm, but with my ideology and the issues. Why is there an automatic conflation of the two items? The one may be completely separate from the other. Also, if some nosy reporter asks me why I’m wearing a gun, I’d answer BECAUSE I CAN. I HAVE THE RIGHT TO. Maybe I’m missing some issue here, but I really don’t see that the sign necessarily has anything to do with carrying weapons. I own a hammer, a clock radio, and large stuffed Pink Panther(won it at a state fair), and I have the legal right to carry them wherever I go. But I don’t. Can You guess why? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/63 "2009-08-19T01:50:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Unless you’re suggesting that we look only to the words on the page, and not to any Supreme Court rulings on the subject. If that’s indeed your proposed approach, then I’ll concede the Second Amendment argument while you concede that Roe v. Wade has no validity. But you can hardly point piously to the specific, limited text of the Second Amendment while simultaneously averring that the right to abortion is a valid constitutional creature. I have conceded many times that _Roe v. Wade_ is bad law, my personal views on abortion notwithstanding. Incidentally, I have also conceded here several times that the Second Amendment _does_ protect the right of civilians to own and carry weapons. I just wish it didn’t. > [@](#): > > Well, there is the fire in a crowded theater exception, but on to the OP. The “fire in theater” exception is not in the text of the amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/64 "2009-08-19T02:17:16Z")
> [@StaudtCJ](#): > > I don’t understand why the gun thing is an issue. I have a pistol. I usually carry it anywhere I’m permitted, which means anywhere that doesn’t sell alcohol or have a sign, generally. I don’t carry concealed, though I could. If I went to a rally of whatever type, I’d have my pistol, in plain sight but holstered, for no other reason than I usually carry it. The sign I carry would have nothing to do with my firearm, but with my ideology and the issues. Why is there an automatic conflation of the two items? The one may be completely separate from the other. Also, if some nosy reporter asks me why I’m wearing a gun, I’d answer BECAUSE I CAN. I HAVE THE RIGHT TO. Maybe I’m missing some issue here, but I really don’t see that the sign necessarily has anything to do with carrying weapons. It’s a threat of violence against your political opponents and will be taken as such. People can weasel and dodge but whether they admit it or not I’m quite sure everyone knows the real reason someone shows up at a rally with a gun is to intimidate people. ---
**Author:** ![Erasmus\_Darwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@Erasmus\_Darwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erasmus_Darwin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/65 "2009-08-19T03:12:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Y’know, I would have expected most Tea Party attendees to be able to tell that those weren’t machine guns. I’m about the furthest thing there is from a gun nut, and I still know that machine guns aren’t hand-held. You are wrong. > **[Machine gun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_gun)** > > A machine gun (MG) is a fully automatic and rifled firearm designed for sustained direct fire. Automatic firearms of 20 mm (0.79 in) caliber or more are classified as autocannons rather than machine guns. > As a class of military kinetic projectile weapons, machine guns are designed to be mainly used as infantry support weapons and generally used when attached to a bipod or tripod, a fixed mount or a heavy weapons platform for stability against recoil. Many machine guns also use belt feeding and o... > [@](#): > > And surely, if it’s acceptable for ordinary civilians to have and use firearms, it should also be acceptable for trained law enforcement officers to have them? The complain was about them allegedly pointing the firearms at the crowd. It’s not acceptable for ordinary civilians to do that unless they’re going to immediately use lethal force as permitted by law. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/66 "2009-08-19T03:18:32Z")
I’m the most pro gun person you’ll find and I think this current trend of people openly displaying guns at these anti-Obama demonstrations to be absolutely fucking insane. I think it gives gun ownership a very bad name. I don’t support it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/67 "2009-08-19T03:28:22Z")
> [@Erasmus\_Darwin](#): > > The complaint was about them allegedly pointing the firearms at the crowd. The complaint was horseshit. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/68 "2009-08-19T03:35:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Yes, as we all know, everyone who follows politics remembers the outcome of every single recent significant Supreme Court case.:rolleyes: Exceptions made for Sarah Palin! I think wearing guns to Obama rallies is one of those things that is legal and should be legal, but is also possibly a very bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/69 "2009-08-19T03:50:30Z")
Well, it turns out that the guy with the AR-15 was a radio-show stunt of some kind… most prolly the “ill-conceived” kind. Why are so many radio show stunts so poorly thought out? [http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/2009/08/assault-rifle-interview-outside-obama-event-in-phoenix-was-planned.php](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/2009/08/assault-rifle-interview-outside-obama-event-in-phoenix-was-planned.php) ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/70 "2009-08-19T04:21:57Z")
Not a radio stunt as in fake publicity or whatnot, just that they were careful in planning things before showing up (i.e., making sure the police knew ahead of time). They were ostensibly making the “guns are our right point” point–that it was planned out isn’t quite tantamount to the whole thing being merely a publicity stunt. I really like how this follows the “blood of patriots and tyrants” dude. Of course, they were merely expressing their right to bear arms. My favorite quote from the linked interview (and also said by Chris during the rally): > [@](#): > > Quite simply, [Chris] understands that his generation is going to be plundered until there’s nothing left to plunder. When you do that, at some point, there will be resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Backcountry\_Medic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Backcountry\_Medic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Backcountry_Medic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/71 "2009-08-19T04:27:16Z")
I don’t think the legality of it is under question, since the OP states “trouble waiting to happen”. It’s just a pointless misapplication of “defending my rights” at an inappropriate time and place. Like was said a few posts ago, this doesn’t really point to responsible gun ownership, and I would think most gun owners would recognize the potential for something stupid to happen (which would likely have a negative effect on gun freedoms) far outweighs any possible good that might come from their displays. Coupled with the fact that these buffoons are seeming to call for blood, it just makes gun owners seem like nutjobs. Which for the record, most are not. And if the point about the radio stunt is true, I would hope to see gun owners up in arms about it. IMO there’s no better way to lessen the importance of something than by making it some sort of joke or cheap publicity stunt. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/72 "2009-08-19T04:31:43Z")
I don’t think it makes gunowners look like nutjobs, it just makes conservatives look like nutjobs. ---
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/73 "2009-08-19T05:39:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If they aren’t actually in the venues, then it’s pretty much just pathetic and impotent, not a crime or a threat to the President, but the “tree of liberty” sign is treading pretty close to advocating assassination. I’d say its closer to advocating suicide, personally. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/74 "2009-08-19T05:56:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I own a hammer, a clock radio, and large stuffed Pink Panther(won it at a state fair), and I have the legal right to carry them wherever I go. > But I don’t. > Can You guess why? Because you don’t strap one on every morning and generally forget that it’s there? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s a threat of violence against your political opponents and will be taken as such. People can weasel and dodge but whether they admit it or not I’m quite sure everyone knows the real reason someone shows up at a rally with a gun is to intimidate people. I would agree with you if the person was waving a gun around and shouting slogans. I disagree that it’s a threat of violence. If I carry a pocketknife, am I also threatening violence? How so? I carry a gun because I carry a gun. It’s on my hip. I feel strange if it isn’t there. I don’t really notice it when it is. If I was going to a rally, I’d get up, get ready to leave the house, and go. The “getting ready to leave the house” part includes checking and strapping on my firearm. How is this an intent to threaten anyone? I agree that SOME people may be intending to threaten, but not everyone carrying a firearm is trying to threaten someone. Also, what if I was supporting the rally-holder? What if the sign is intended as a “we’ll get our enemies” thing, not a “death to the rally-holder” thing? > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I think wearing guns to Obama rallies is one of those things that is legal and should be legal, but is also possibly a very bad idea. Now, THIS, I can agree with. Just because I usually wear a firearm doesn’t mean that I can expect not to be questioned or watched by policemen concerned for the safety of whoever’s at or holding the rally. Not wearing a firearm would definitely be easier from that perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/75 "2009-08-19T06:00:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I think wearing guns to Obama rallies is one of those things that is legal and should be legal, but is also possibly a very bad idea. I have a way of solving this problem. Let anyone who wants to bring a gun to a rally. However, each such person will be assigned a police officer or Secret Service agent who will have a pistol pointed at the guy’s head. Gun stays holstered, fine. Hand goes to holster, police gun ready. Gun comes out of holster, boom. Now that’s a right to bear arms I can get behind. You can’t be too careful. One of these guys with the guns might be a Socialist. Only a slight 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/76 "2009-08-19T06:06:09Z")
> [@StaudtCJ](#): > > I would agree with you if the person was waving a gun around and shouting slogans. I disagree that it’s a threat of violence. If I carry a pocketknife, am I also threatening violence? How so? I carry a gun because I carry a gun. It’s on my hip. I feel strange if it isn’t there. I don’t really notice it when it is. If I was going to a rally, I’d get up, get ready to leave the house, and go. The “getting ready to leave the house” part includes checking and strapping on my firearm. How is this an intent to threaten anyone? I agree that SOME people may be intending to threaten, but not everyone carrying a firearm is trying to threaten someone. Also, what if I was supporting the rally-holder? What if the sign is intended as a “we’ll get our enemies” thing, not a “death to the rally-holder” thing? Because we know quite well what the right wing is like and we know that they have threatened and carried out violence before. Because a pocket knife isn’t only a weapon and a gun is. And I do think that ( outside of cops and soldiers who need it for their jobs; and many of them ) the reason most people carry guns is to threaten people. Because they are bullies or worse. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/77 "2009-08-19T06:13:30Z")
I’m glad you qualified that with a “most”. I now understand your position, and that it is incompatible with mine. I also understand that neither of us will change our minds. I gracefully bow out of gun discussions with you at this point. You are as entitled to your opinions as I am, even if I disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/78 "2009-08-19T06:18:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Well, it turns out that the guy with the AR-15 was a radio-show stunt of some kind… most prolly the “ill-conceived” kind. Why are so many radio show stunts so poorly thought out? > > [http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/2009/08/assault-rifle-interview-outside-obama-event-in-phoenix-was-planned.php](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/2009/08/assault-rifle-interview-outside-obama-event-in-phoenix-was-planned.php) It further turns out that the guy who organized the stunt was closely tied to the Viper Militia, a group that Janet Reno busted up in the 90s by sending some of them to jail for conspiracy to bomb federal buildings. [http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/ernest\_hancock\_viper\_militia\_gun\_obama\_event.php?ref=fpa](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/ernest_hancock_viper_militia_gun_obama_event.php?ref=fpa) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/79 "2009-08-19T06:19:13Z")
I also want to say this. Regardless of why you intended to do so, bringing a gun to anything as emotionally charged as a political rally or protest is extremely foolish. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/80 "2009-08-19T06:23:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I also want to say this. Regardless of why you intended to do so, bringing a gun to anything as emotionally charged as a political rally or protest is extremely foolish. That’s a statement I can get behind. There are LOTS of foolish people out there. Sometimes, I’m one of them. If I stopped to think about it, I wouldn’t take a gun to a rally or protest, but I can’t guarantee that I’d remember to change my morning routine that morning to leave the gun behind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848.md?page=5)