# Bringing Guns to Obama Appearances -- Trouble waiting to Happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848 "2009-08-18T15:23:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/81 "2009-08-19T06:28:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because a pocket knife isn’t only a weapon and a gun is. Shows how much you know. Nutcracker, hammer, back scratcher (if it’s a long arm), vase… the list goes on! **StaudtCJ** , I don’t think anyone doubts your basic point–that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, that someone showing up at the rally with a gun was not _necessarily_ looking to make a point. I daresay, though, that in the two specific instances at hand, doing so requires some extreme benefit of the doubting. I think **TPM** is going a bit far trying to link Hancock with the Militia groups. While I think he’s a loon, merely _defending_ them, vociferously or not, does not make for that strong of a connection. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/82 "2009-08-19T06:35:31Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Shows how much you know. Nutcracker, hammer, back scratcher (if it’s a long arm), vase… the list goes on! None of which are only weapons. Or as dangerous as a gun for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/83 "2009-08-19T06:46:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > None of which are only weapons. Or as dangerous as a gun for that matter. :smack: no no no no no… read it back in context as a direct, contradictory reply to you. Like this: D: Because a pocket knife isn’t only a weapon and **a gun is**. R: Shows how much you know. Nutcracker, hammer, back scratcher (if it’s a long arm), vase… the list goes on! Man, I shouldn’t attempt humor at two thirty in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/84 "2009-08-19T09:30:36Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > :smack: no no no no no… read it back in context as a direct, contradictory reply to you. Like this: > > D: Because a pocket knife isn’t only a weapon and **a gun is**. > R: Shows how much you know. Nutcracker, hammer, back scratcher (if it’s a long arm), vase… the list goes on! > > Man, I shouldn’t attempt humor at two thirty in the morning. And don’t forget that you can always use your gun as a TV remote control, too! ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/85 "2009-08-19T09:47:21Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > And don’t forget that you can always use your gun as a TV remote control, too! Yeah, but only once. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/86 "2009-08-19T11:00:45Z")
Depends. If it’s an ultrasonic remote TV, you can change the channels by jacking the slide! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/87 "2009-08-19T11:06:17Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > What I do know is that in every case I’ve seen – TV and print, for Obama and against Obama – these occurrences are being presented as if everyone openly carrying is not only anti-Obama, but pissed off to the point of violence. And I see that assumption in a bunch of posts in this thread. Some of them are openly hostile, so it’s That’s because at least some of them have implied they are pissed off almost to the point of violence. Maybe some are just carrying their guns like they always do, and there could be a cultural difference going on here. I doubt anyone has done a survey of this group of people. But in context, it’s hard to read bringing a gun to a political rally as a show of support, or as a neutral act. And in theory if you did go through with your protest, it’s hard to see the good side of more people carrying guns to these [del]anti-death panel[/del] health care events. ---
**Author:** ![Paleface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Paleface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paleface)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/88 "2009-08-19T12:28:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Oh my God, a secret service agent was ARMED!!! What do you think should happen to that agent in the video? Should he be arrested? What exactly is your gripe here? > > This is absolutely the kind of utterly contrived, puerile, manufactured outrage that is making the political right look ridiculous right now. There’s not a damn thing contrived here, DC. The #1 rule in gun safety is: NEVER point a gun, loaded or unloaded, at something you are not willing to destroy. If government agents are pointing guns at innocent citizens, then they must be willing to destroy them. I don’t know about you, but that rubs me the wrong way. Conversely, if a private citizen points a gun at an innocent citizen, even without malice, he or she can be charged with a crime. Recently, a deer hunter was charged with a crime (indangerment, I believe) for using the scope on his rifle as binoculars to investigate a noise in the woods, which turned out to be a forrestry agent. No harm was intended, but the hunter had his rifle pointed at the agent while viewing him with his scope. When those on the political left, out of nothing more than petty politics, make excuses for the innappropriate actions of government agents, it just makes me even more certain that I am in the right. (pun intended) ---
**Author:** ![Paleface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Paleface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paleface)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/89 "2009-08-19T12:39:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Y’know, I would have expected most Tea Party attendees to be able to tell that those weren’t machine guns. I’m about the furthest thing there is from a gun nut, and I still know that machine guns aren’t hand-held. Both Heckler & Koch MP5s and UZIs are employed by the Secret Service. Both weapons fall into the maching-gun classification, and both are hand-held. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/90 "2009-08-19T12:57:48Z")
> [@Paleface](#): > > The #1 rule in gun safety is: > NEVER point a gun, loaded or unloaded, at something you are not willing to destroy. I thought the #1 rule was not to talk about gun safety. Regardless, with all the cameras around in the crowd, has any photo or video actually showed up that show government agents coming _close_ to “sweeping the crowd”? And in the unlikely event that you do find some smidgen of objective corroboration, why on Earth would this be a political issue? Because people love Obama just so very much that they’re willing to overlook even his SS details mistakes? Because we all know Obama’s from da hood and excess gunplay is so natural it’s forgivable? Because people are so blinded by their LOVE OF OBAMA that they can’t see that he’s already bringing harsh dictatorial tactics to bear? Seriously, WTF? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/91 "2009-08-19T13:11:46Z")
> [@Paleface](#): > > There’s not a damn thing contrived here, DC. > > The #1 rule in gun safety is: > NEVER point a gun, loaded or unloaded, at something you are not willing to destroy. > > If government agents are pointing guns at innocent citizens, then they must be willing to destroy them. I don’t know about you, but that rubs me the wrong way. > > Conversely, if a private citizen points a gun at an innocent citizen, even without malice, he or she can be charged with a crime. Recently, a deer hunter was charged with a crime (indangerment, I believe) for using the scope on his rifle as binoculars to investigate a noise in the woods, which turned out to be a forrestry agent. No harm was intended, but the hunter had his rifle pointed at the agent while viewing him with his scope. > > When those on the political left, out of nothing more than petty politics, make excuses for the innappropriate actions of government agents, it just makes me even more certain that I am in the right. (pun intended) Again, the Secret Service agents in question were members of the Counter Assault Team, who are charged with putting themselves between the President any threat that may present itself. They follow the motorcade with windows open and weapons at the ready. This is not a left vs. right issue; that’s how the Secret Sertvice operates, and their methods do not vary according to who is in office. The Secret Service did not transform in the last six months from the best trained and most highly disciplined professional security detail in the world into a bunch of armed yahoo thugs who cruise around waving their weapons at civilians for kicks. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/92 "2009-08-19T14:09:58Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > It further turns out that the guy who organized the stunt was closely tied to the Viper Militia, a group that Janet Reno busted up in the 90s by sending some of them to jail for conspiracy to bomb federal buildings. > > [http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/ernest\_hancock\_viper\_militia\_gun\_obama\_event.php?ref=fpa](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/ernest_hancock_viper_militia_gun_obama_event.php?ref=fpa) Wow, that’s pretty shocking. Almost as much as, say, a Presidential candidate schmoozing with a known bombmaker. That could never happen, right? Color me unconcerned. I’m not a big fan of guilt by association. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/93 "2009-08-19T14:26:03Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > You can see more clearly in the stills on this page: [Secret Service Pulls Guns on Tea Party Protesters?](http://www.bermanpost.com/2009/08/secret-service-pulls-guns-on-tea-party.html). The eyewitness account reads “All of the vehicles had all the windows rolled down, and back hatch open on the SUVs with the men holding their, I assume assault rifes, machine guns, drawn on everyone lining the streets. Needless to say it took my breath away at the sight of them, and made my friends and I dizzy with fear.” > > However, what they saw was the Secret Service Counter Assault Team, who always ride in the motorcade with windows down and weapons at the ready, as in [this photo](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/11/06/2008-11-06_obama_gets_his_first_threat_briefing_as_.html) and [this one](http://image.politicalbase.com/uploads/people/4000/3221/be8da9ee-3abc-420d-934c-f1f294d5d9c9_600.jpg). It’s Secret Service protocol and has nothing to do with protests or who happens to be President. Correct. The Secret Service did nothing wrong here at all. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/94 "2009-08-19T14:54:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Correct. The Secret Service did nothing wrong here at all. Oh, you’ll say anything to defend your precious Obama, Bricker. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/95 "2009-08-19T18:05:01Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I can’t imagine this sort of thing happening under any previous President, or in the vicinity of Dick Cheney. [Here](http://www.flickr.com/photos/soldiersmediacenter/2344964515/in/photostream/) is a picture of Me and Dick Cheney and several thousand other armed wackos at a rally I was somewhat pressured into attending. At several points, I was within 5 feet of then Vice President Cheney and any one of the thousands of us could have shot him easily, Secret Service be damned. We certainly wouldn’t have escaped repercussions, but Mr. Cheney trusted us with his life that day, and it is one of the few positive things I can say about the man. Even Slick Dick knows that just because you’re armed doesn’t make you a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/96 "2009-08-19T18:05:09Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Again, the Secret Service agents in question were members of the Counter Assault Team, who are charged with putting themselves between the President any threat that may present itself. They follow the motorcade with windows open and weapons at the ready. The #1 rule in gun safety for the Counter Assault Team is to take out that bastard standing over there with the AR-15. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/97 "2009-08-19T19:26:50Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > [Here](http://www.flickr.com/photos/soldiersmediacenter/2344964515/in/photostream/) is a picture of Me and Dick Cheney and several thousand other armed wackos at a rally I was somewhat pressured into attending. At several points, I was within 5 feet of then Vice President Cheney and any one of the thousands of us could have shot him easily, Secret Service be damned. We certainly wouldn’t have escaped repercussions, but Mr. Cheney trusted us with his life that day, and it is one of the few positive things I can say about the man. Even Slick Dick knows that just because you’re armed doesn’t make you a murderer. So… he’s afraid of my CAR? Why else were we locked on a freeway for 45 minutes because he _might_ decide to use a part of it? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/98 "2009-08-19T19:52:09Z")
Quoth **StaudtCJ** : > [@](#): > > If I carry a pocketknife, am I also threatening violence? How so? I carry a gun because I carry a gun. It’s on my hip. I feel strange if it isn’t there. I don’t really notice it when it is. If I was going to a rally, I’d get up, get ready to leave the house, and go. The “getting ready to leave the house” part includes checking and strapping on my firearm. How is this an intent to threaten anyone? I must admit I don’t entirely get this. There are a lot of things I routinely carry on my person: Pocketknife, calculator, phone, etc. And I too don’t really notice I’m carrying them, and feel a bit odd when I’m not. But I don’t just “carry a pocketknife because I carry a pocketknife”… I carry it because I find that a pocketknife is quite frequently useful. Likewise, I can conceive of a person who gets into the habit of carrying a stuffed Pink Panther strapped to his hip, and routinely does so. But I would be very surprised to see someone doing so, and would probably ask why. And if the answer was “I carry a Pink Panther because I carry a Pink Panther”, I would be even more confused. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/99 "2009-08-19T20:05:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **StaudtCJ** :I must admit I don’t entirely get this. There are a lot of things I routinely carry on my person: Pocketknife, calculator, phone, etc. And I too don’t really notice I’m carrying them, and feel a bit odd when I’m not. But I don’t just “carry a pocketknife because I carry a pocketknife”… I carry it because I find that a pocketknife is quite frequently useful. > > Likewise, I can conceive of a person who gets into the habit of carrying a stuffed Pink Panther strapped to his hip, and routinely does so. But I would be very surprised to see someone doing so, and would probably ask why. And if the answer was “I carry a Pink Panther because I carry a Pink Panther”, I would be even more confused. Don’t you ever get tired of asking this question? You do it seemingly in every thread, and you always get the same answer: if we knew when or if it would become necessary to defend ourselves, we would only carry it on those occasions. But we don’t, so we carry them all the time. Why do you carry a pocketknife? For the infrequent times you might need one. Same same. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848/100 "2009-08-19T20:38:12Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So… he’s afraid of my CAR? > > Why else were we locked on a freeway for 45 minutes because he _might_ decide to use a part of it? I don’t agree with bigwigs demanding an entire interstate emptied of cars for their convenience, and I don’t agree with emptying an entire venue of firearms for their comfort, either. Fat chance either practice will end any time soon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bringing-guns-to-obama-appearances-trouble-waiting-to-happen/506848.md?page=6)