# Brit Dopers - Do you know any poor Tory supporters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432 "2010-10-26T19:09:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/21 "2010-10-27T18:35:37Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Old-style Liberals: After the 1920s they had three main strongholds: Southwest England (Devon and Cornwall, for the most part), parts of Scotland, and (sort of) the London suburbs. The latter needs explanation: for much of Greater London, the Liberals were the eternal second-place candidates, occasionally winning a race. So while there was no ‘safe’ seat around London, unless the party lost big they could expect one or two seats where their candidate was first past the post – just not the same seats from election to election. > > Social Democrats: Originally the right wing of Labour, and hence the slightly-left moderates who would usually vote Labour in preference to Conservative, but who were not solidly behind a Leftist platform. When Kinnock led Labour left, they split and soon merged with the Liberals. > > 21st Century LibDems: Mostly people with a “a plague on both your houses” attitude towards the Tories and Labour, along with a mildly nationalist contingent (but not the fascist British National Party form of nationalism) who have issues with the EU that the LibDems capitalized on. > > A very small but real fourth group consists of those who want electoral reform and who support the LibDems as the strongest advocate of it. So, apart from a few communist microparties, there is no party to choose in the field, any more, that stands for sticking it to big business? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/22 "2010-10-27T18:48:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, apart from a few communist microparties, there is no party to choose in the field, any more, that stands for sticking it to big business? The Greens have one MP, but that’s probably the most they’ll ever have under FPTP. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/23 "2010-10-28T06:09:05Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Ahem - Michael Foot, not Neil Kinnock. And more accurately when the Labour Party membership led Labour left… Sorry. I don’t think I did too bad on past political history of what’s to me a foreign country, though, considering. But if Michael were still leading Labour, and made Ed Shadow Minister of Munitions, could the Sun headline that “Foot Hands Balls Arms Head Seat” ? ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/24 "2010-10-28T07:25:29Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > 21st Century LibDems: Mostly people with a “a plague on both your houses” attitude towards the Tories and Labour, along with a mildly nationalist contingent (but not the fascist British National Party form of nationalism) who have issues with the EU that the LibDems capitalized on. Eh? LibDems have been pretty pro-Europe in the 21st Century. In fact, until the current coalition, they were attracting a lot of former Labour supporters dissatisfied with Labour’s swing to the right. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/25 "2010-10-28T07:28:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, apart from a few communist microparties, there is no party to choose in the field, any more, that stands for sticking it to big business? True, I guess, but I’m not sure ‘sticking it to big business’ is a voting issue in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/26 "2010-10-28T08:55:14Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Depends what you mean by ‘poor’. I suppose. > > The Alf Garnett [transl for US readers; Archie Bunker] character typifies the working-class man who stupidly continues to vote Conservative, thus betraying his class, and his own self-interest. How does one “betray their class”? What loyalty should one have to their class, anyway? I’ve seen the effects of class loyalty: it leads to people who could get ahead choosing not to do so in case they’re seen as “class traitors”, “posh”, “too good for us, now”, etc. It’s a stupid concept that does more to harm the working classes than any government policy ever will. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/27 "2010-10-28T09:08:28Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > How does one “betray their class”? What loyalty should one have to their class, anyway? I’ve seen the effects of class loyalty: it leads to people who could get ahead choosing not to do so in case they’re seen as “class traitors”, “posh”, “too good for us, now”, etc. It’s a stupid concept that does more to harm the working classes than any government policy ever will. Exactly, what class am I? how should I vote? Mother from lowly Durham dales farmer stock, Father ex-miner and lorry driver, Working class upbringing. One brother working for the council the other a phd from Cambridge and a university lecturer, My sister and I are fairly high up in Pharmaceuticals. All of us are comfortable but all us are in different positions regarding political beliefs. And quite right. We are all individuals and each makes a judgement as to which political party best represents us in the areas we now live and work. To suggest that one should always vote a particular way because of your “class” is ridiculous. That stops you having to think and and that way madness and prejudice lies. I have heard people say “I’ll always vote labour/Tory, my family always have” and I despair, I mentally mark them down. What basis is that to come to a political decision? ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/28 "2010-10-28T10:02:41Z")
My aunt and her partner are Tory voters, and they’re (originally - she lives in London now) rural poor. Their rationale was typically that the Tories had let them buy their own house under the Right to Buy scheme (which allowed council tenants to buy the houses they were in at ridiculously low rates, thereby helping to lead to the scarcity of social housing we have now) and that the Tories don’t put up taxes. The latter point is, of course, demonstrably false, otherwise there wouldn’t have been a poll tax riot in the early 1990s. The idea that taxes go up under Labour and down under the Tories is one that I’ve yet to see backed up by any evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/29 "2010-10-28T10:43:49Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > … and that the Tories don’t put up taxes. > > The latter point is, of course, demonstrably false, otherwise there wouldn’t have been a poll tax riot in the early 1990s Actually, you’re incorrect WRT the poll tax. It was substantially less for singletons. If she were living on her own at the time - as I was - she would have seen her taxes go down. Further, the Tories did reduce taxes. Thatcher chopped the top rate, for instance. But she’s unlikely to have benefited from that. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/30 "2010-10-28T10:44:05Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > How does one “betray their class”? What loyalty should one have to their class, anyway? I’ve seen the effects of class loyalty: it leads to people who could get ahead choosing not to do so in case they’re seen as “class traitors”, “posh”, “too good for us, now”, etc. It’s a stupid concept that does more to harm the working classes than any government policy ever will. Whence Pterry’s phrase “crab bucket”, used in _Unseen Academicals_. You can’t keep one crab in a bucket - it will climb out - but you can keep a dozen crabs in a bucket, because as soon as one tries to climb out the others will drag it back down. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/31 "2010-10-28T10:47:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > To suggest that one should always vote a particular way because of your “class” is ridiculous. That stops you having to think and and that way madness and prejudice lies. > I have heard people say “I’ll always vote labour/Tory, my family always have” and I despair, I mentally mark them down. What basis is that to come to a political decision? The early works of Dennis Potter dwell on this theme, particularly _Stand Up, Nigel Barton_, and _Vote, Vote, Vote, For Nigel Barton_ - the feeling (by the character and his relatives) that, in going to Oxford and getting an education he has disowned his roots and his family’s interests, while his new ‘comrades’ in the Labour party despise him for it . Based on the author’s experiences as the son of a coal miner, and as a Labour candidate in the 1964 election ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/32 "2010-10-28T11:02:18Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > The latter point is, of course, demonstrably false, otherwise there wouldn’t have been a poll tax riot in the early 1990s. The idea that taxes go up under Labour and down under the Tories is one that I’ve yet to see backed up by any evidence. Guess which government taxed the most, as a proportion of GDP? That’s right, the Thatcher government. Now, some of that was due to high unemployment in the early 80s, but even in the boom years it was over 42% of GDP. Since then it’s wavered between 39% and 42%, generally slightly higher under Labour. Must be annoying when people go on about “Tory cuts”, because they can’t say “hey, we spend more than anybody!” ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/33 "2010-10-28T11:13:38Z")
The tendency of Conservative administrations in the 80s was to shift taxation to point-of-sale taxes rather than income tax. They could say, ‘yes, you’ve got more money in your pocket’ (even if it didn’t stay there for long). ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/34 "2010-10-28T11:16:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Actually, you’re incorrect WRT the poll tax. It was substantially less for singletons. If she were living on her own at the time - as I was - she would have seen her taxes go down. > > Further, the Tories did reduce taxes. Thatcher chopped the top rate, for instance. But she’s unlikely to have benefited from that. That’s where a lot of the protest arose from… multiple occupancy houses (students, crusty activitists etc) used to pay the same rate per property as a couple in the same size house. I was too young to appreciate the arguments at the time, but it does seem strange to tax a property regardless of how many people live in it. The size of the buliding has much less impact on the public services required than the number of individuals living in it. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/35 "2010-10-28T11:34:11Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > How does one “betray their class”? What loyalty should one have to their class, anyway? I’ve seen the effects of class loyalty: it leads to people who could get ahead choosing not to do so in case they’re seen as “class traitors”, “posh”, “too good for us, now”, etc. It’s a stupid concept that does more to harm the working classes than any government policy ever will. You appear to be reaching towards an absurd conclusion. If an approach to voting has harmed the working classes then it seems necessary that there is the possibility of voting effectively to promote your class interests. For instance, if these foolish people had just voted for the opposite party? Perhaps some posters are reading to much into the ‘class interests’ remark. If we are content that voters may vote in their own self-interest, and if we accept that there are classes of voters in Britain today who might be affected in different ways by policies, then it is practical to consider which classes you belong to, and to vote for the party which is most likely in aggregate to promote the interests of those classes, thus directly serving your own self interest. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/36 "2010-10-28T11:39:16Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > I was too young to appreciate the arguments at the time, but it does seem strange to tax a property regardless of how many people live in it. The size of the buliding has much less impact on the public services required than the number of individuals living in it. Really? Does your council collect the rubbish more often from multiple occupancy houses? Does it provide more street lights to them? Does it provide them with more streets? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/37 "2010-10-28T11:47:00Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > The tendency of Conservative administrations in the 80s was to shift taxation to point-of-sale taxes rather than income tax. They could say, ‘yes, you’ve got more money in your pocket’ (even if it didn’t stay there for long). Ah yes, the joys of 15% VAT and the fuel tax escalator. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/38 "2010-10-28T12:23:14Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Really? Does your council collect the rubbish more often from multiple occupancy houses? Does it provide more street lights to them? Does it provide them with more streets? Yes, pretty much, when you look at the list of service paid for by Council Tax. A Band C property with two people in it is likely to use fewer council resources than a Band C property with 8 people in it. This is self-evident, no? e.g. The shared house down the road from us creates much more rubbish than us. Yet per person they pay less for the services they receive than we do. ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/39 "2010-10-28T12:44:09Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > You appear to be reaching towards an absurd conclusion. If an approach to voting has harmed the working classes then it seems necessary that there is the possibility of voting effectively to promote your class interests. For instance, if these foolish people had just voted for the opposite party? > > Perhaps some posters are reading to much into the ‘class interests’ remark. If we are content that voters may vote in their own self-interest, and if we accept that there are classes of voters in Britain today who might be affected in different ways by policies, then it is practical to consider which classes you belong to, and to vote for the party which is most likely in aggregate to promote the interests of those classes, thus directly serving your own self interest. The suggestion is that instead of just voting for Labour, or whatever party your parents and neighbours vote for you actually make an attempt to evaluate the policies of the parties and make an informed choice. You know, take part in democracy rather than acting like an idiot drone. After all if you always vote for a certain party and always will they don’t actually have any reason to serve your interests, since they can always count on your vote. That is exactly why New Labour were able to give the shaft to their normal core vote so effectively, they new they’d never vote for anyone else. I also find it amazing that the only people that seem intent on preserving the horendous, outdated class system these days are the ‘working classes’. Almost everybody else has moved on. More on topic, an interesting difference between the US and the UK is that in the US the Democrats are seen as the elitists, but in the UK it is pretty undeniable that the Conservatives are the elitists. Especially at the moment, practically all of the top men went to Oxford or Cambridge for higher education and Eton and other private schools before that. My perception is that most less-well off Tory voters are of the Daily Mail sort, borderline racists who rant about immigrants stealing their hair and such bollocks. My aunt is one of those. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432/40 "2010-10-28T13:48:22Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > That’s where a lot of the protest arose from… multiple occupancy houses (students, crusty activitists etc) used to pay the same rate per property as a couple in the same size house. > > I was too young to appreciate the arguments at the time, but it does seem strange to tax a property regardless of how many people live in it. The size of the buliding has much less impact on the public services required than the number of individuals living in it. The major difference was that people who rented didn’t pay rates - they were a tax on the property owner. Single people and those who shared homes were more likely to be in rented accomodation, as were the poor. While the theory was that rents would fall, it didn’t happen - trust me, I was living in rental accomodation at the time, as were all of my friends, and none of us saw a drop in rent. It was a transfer of income from the poor to the rich, and from the renters to the property owners. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brit-dopers-do-you-know-any-poor-tory-supporters/558432.md?page=3)