# Britain gave it's American Colonies Parliament seats. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011 "2011-10-08T17:18:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/61 "2011-10-10T03:50:05Z")
If the British set up a devolved parliament in the Colonies, with other institutions, say a Supreme Court, and an executive, they might avoid the revolution…for now. But the causes of the revolution were mismanagement by British officials in local affairs. the British would get another revolution, unless they adopted a posture of self rule with just a minimum of supervision, which is what they did in the Colonies in the 19 th century. But that was as result of the events in North America. Would it have happened without it? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/62 "2011-10-10T04:22:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And just imagine Rudyard Kipling growing up in the Wild West instead of British India . . . “From Sea to Sea, Part II” (Kipling travelled across the USA, and even met Twain) > **[The Project Gutenberg eBook of From Sea to Sea, by Rudyard Kipling.](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/32977/32977-h/32977-h.htm)** > [@](#): > > The American army is a beautiful little army. Some day, when all the Indians are happily dead or drunk, it ought to make the finest scientific and survey corps that the world has ever seen. > . . . . > The bond between the States is of amazing tenuity. So long as they do not absolutely march into the District of Columbia, sit on the Washington statues, and invent a flag of their own, they can legislate, lynch, hunt negroes through swamps, divorce, railroad, and rampage as much as ever they choose. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/63 "2011-10-10T04:53:11Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > If the British set up a devolved parliament in the Colonies, with other institutions, say a Supreme Court, and an executive, they might avoid the revolution…for now. But the causes of the revolution were mismanagement by British officials in local affairs. the British would get another revolution, unless they adopted a posture of self rule with just a minimum of supervision, which is what they did in the Colonies in the 19 th century. But that was as result of the events in North America. Would it have happened without it? Remember, we’re talking here about an option the British never tried in our timeline, in America or in any later colonies or dominions: Political representation in London for the colonies. That’s a different matter than self-rule. It means the power-relationships between capital and colonies run **both** ways. It seems an obvious common-sense solution in hindsight, of course, because it resembles the federal system America set up and which has worked pretty well on a continental scale – why not transoceanic? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/64 "2011-10-10T04:56:54Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > “From Sea to Sea, Part II” (Kipling travelled across the USA, and even met Twain) > [The Project Gutenberg eBook of From Sea to Sea, by Rudyard Kipling.](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/32977/32977-h/32977-h.htm) Continued: He married an American, and spent several years living in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/65 "2011-10-10T05:15:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Remember, we’re talking here about an option the British never tried in our timeline, in America or in any later colonies or dominions: Political representation in London for the colonies. That’s a different matter than self-rule. It means the power-relationships between capital and colonies run **both** ways. It seems an obvious common-sense solution in hindsight, of course, because it resembles the federal system America set up and which has worked pretty well on a continental scale – why not transoceanic? Decisions needed to be made locally. Note how very independent the US states were (as noted above by Kipling) even once there was a USA. The nature of the English overseas colonial system was to appoint a governor who ran the show locally. The governor would be advised by a local cabinet. As responsible government grew, it was by way of local assemblymen/parliamentarians forming a local cabinet to advise the local governor, and eventually control the local governor. This system worked well in regions that were primarily populated by British colonials, for it provided a stable legal system out of which local responsible government could grow, rather than attempting to maintain centralized control over extremely long distances. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/66 "2011-10-10T05:29:37Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Decisions needed to be made locally. Note how very independent the US states were (as noted above by Kipling) even once there was a USA. > > The nature of the English overseas colonial system was to appoint a governor who ran the show locally. The governor would be advised by a local cabinet. As responsible government grew, it was by way of local assemblymen/parliamentarians forming a local cabinet to advise the local governor, and eventually control the local governor. This system worked well in regions that were primarily populated by British colonials, for it provided a stable legal system out of which local responsible government could grow, rather than attempting to maintain centralized control over extremely long distances. And that was a pretty good system. Which eventually ended with everybody so self-governed that the Empire broke up, the colonies seeing no need for it or advantage in it. But, in any case, that system you describe would not be in any way incompatible with the existence and operation of another, parallel channel of political power running the other way, in the form of the colonies sharing with the English and Scottish boroughs the privilege of sending members to Parliament. And then the Empire might **not** break up, since every part of it would feel like a fully participating partner. After all, in our timeline, America’s states are pretty well self-governed, but they remain in the Union willingly and loyally (even Texas, despite occasional venting). ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/67 "2011-10-10T12:09:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As I pointed out, the taxes were actually quite low - lower than what people were paying in England without protest. Do you have a cite for what those rates were? A Smithsonian exhibit about three years ago painted a very different picture: Britain won the French and Indian War by breaking the bank and outspending the French by a wide margin, and paid for it by levying a hefty tax on the American colonists (reasoning that the colonists should pay for their own defense, and for maintaining a large and standing British military presence for decades to come). Like you, they didn’t mention any specific rate, but they made it sound pretty considerable. And no one in America was amassing the kind of fortunes that their landed counterparts in England had. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/68 "2011-10-10T13:24:50Z")
To add to it; they were levied a special war tax, which is one of the reasons is stung so badly. A body they were not subject to came and demanded their money for a tax they should have had to pay, for, as they saw it, charging them twice. The colon ists fought in the war, too, and fought well. It may have been this realization which started them down that road: that they were being charged by Britain for the British defending the colonists… in a war which wouldn’t have occurred except that they were part of Britain. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/69 "2011-10-10T14:26:57Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > It may have been this realization which started them down that road: that they were being charged by Britain for the British defending the colonists… in a war which wouldn’t have occurred except that they were part of Britain. [shrug] If the colonists had been granted their independence 10 years earlier, they still would have got caught up in it, if France wanted their territory. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/70 "2011-10-10T15:15:16Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Do you have a cite for what those rates were? A Smithsonian exhibit about three years ago painted a very different picture: Britain won the French and Indian War by breaking the bank and outspending the French by a wide margin, and paid for it by levying a hefty tax on the American colonists (reasoning that the colonists should pay for their own defense, and for maintaining a large and standing British military presence for decades to come). Like you, they didn’t mention any specific rate, but they made it sound pretty considerable. And no one in America was amassing the kind of fortunes that their landed counterparts in England had. I don’t know how authoritative [this site is](http://www.ashevillelist.com/gb/king-george-3.htm), but it mentions the lower taxes of the colonists. But that’s what I was taught in university also – in grade school, it was just one big dump on the godless British – although I never heard the exact rates. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/71 "2011-10-10T16:22:08Z")
Just out of curiosity, what (if anything) are **British** schoolchildren taught about the American Revolution? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/72 "2011-10-10T17:16:08Z")
Nothing. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/73 "2011-10-10T17:40:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Just out of curiosity, what (if anything) are **British** schoolchildren taught about the American Revolution? There are a few previous threads on this topic, such as [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=517198). Summary: pretty much as **Captain Ridley’s Shooting Party** said. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/74 "2011-10-10T17:46:20Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > There are a few previous threads on this topic, such as [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=517198). > > Summary: pretty much as **Captain Ridley’s Shooting Party** said. ☹ Boy, that’s a nasty divorce! ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/75 "2011-10-10T20:06:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > ☹ Boy, that’s a nasty divorce! Hey, at least \*we \*don’t have an annual festival to commemorate it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/76 "2011-10-10T21:11:23Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Hey, at least \*we \*don’t have an annual festival to commemorate it. :mad: No, it doesn’t matter at all to **you,** does it?! No big deal, just losing the American colonies for being so pigheaded. Hardly worth remembering. Just one more national/international affair among so, so many going back to the Roman invasion . . . Britannia is such a **jaded** bitch . . . _sob_ . . . ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/77 "2011-10-10T21:20:46Z")
I doubt Australia would be a settled British colony. Population could have been far more profitably settled here. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/78 "2011-10-10T21:24:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :mad: No, it doesn’t matter at all to **you,** does it?! No big deal, just losing the American colonies for being so pigheaded. Hardly worth remembering. Just one more national/international affair among so, so many going back to the Roman invasion . . . Britannia is such a **jaded** bitch . . . _sob_ . . . That’s right, honey. _You_ walked out because you thought you could do better, and you thought _I_ was going to sit around pining for you and convincing myself you were coming back. Then just a few short years later you start in on the most epic outpouring of self-harm a so-called civilised country ever indulged itself in. Hoo boy, did _we_ ever dodge a bullet! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/79 "2011-10-10T21:27:04Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > I doubt Australia would be a settled British colony. > > Population could have been far more profitably settled here. [As a matter of fact:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_colony#British_Empire) > [@](#): > > The British used North America as a penal colony through a system of indentured servitude. Convicts would be transported by merchants and auctioned off to plantation owners upon arrival in the colonies. It is estimated that some 50,000 British convicts were sent to colonial America, representing perhaps one-quarter of all British emigrants during the 18th century.[1] > > When that avenue closed in the 1780s after the American Revolution, Britain began using parts of what is now known as Australia as penal settlements. . . . But, if the British don’t grab Australia, who does? It’s hard to imagine such valuable real estate being left alone in the 19th Century. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/80 "2011-10-10T21:35:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [As a matter of fact:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_colony#British_Empire) > > But, if the British don’t grab Australia, who does? It’s hard to imagine such valuable real estate being left alone in the 19th Century. France? Spain? Holland? Portugal? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011.md?page=5)