# Britain gave it's American Colonies Parliament seats. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011 "2011-10-08T17:18:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/81 "2011-10-10T21:36:09Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > That’s right, honey. _You_ walked out because you thought you could do better, and you thought _I_ was going to sit around pining for you and convincing myself you were coming back. Then just a few short years later you start in on the most epic outpouring of self-harm a so-called civilised country ever indulged itself in. Hoo boy, did _we_ ever dodge a bullet! 😛 :o I admit that if we’d stayed with you . . . perhaps that little episode could have been avoided. But, hey, that kind of . . . bad time is all part of growing up, sometimes. [You **know** what I’m talking about, Mom!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_the_Three_Kingdoms)[You **really** know!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_civil_wars) ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/82 "2011-10-10T22:49:50Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > France? > > Spain? > > Holland? > > Portugal? Any of the above, and easily. Which is why the British looked to settle it, and why they would have done so even if the American revolution had failed or had not happened at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/83 "2011-10-10T22:56:25Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Any of the above, and easily. Which is why the British looked to settle it, and why they would have done so even if the American revolution had failed or had not happened at all. What, just to keep it out of any other power’s hands?! Did the Brits really think that way, then?! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/84 "2011-10-10T22:59:27Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > France? > > Spain? > > Holland? > > Portugal? If not Britain, then probably the Netherlands, which already had the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia) right next to Australia. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/85 "2011-10-10T23:12:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What, just to keep it out of any other power’s hands?! Did the Brits really think that way, then?! Yeah. We were raging maniacs. Sorry, not familiar enough with GD and its participants to know for sure if someone’s yanking my chain. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/86 "2011-10-10T23:23:40Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Yeah. We were raging maniacs. > > Sorry, not familiar enough with GD and its participants to know for sure if someone’s yanking my chain. No, no, serious question. (When I’m joking, I will grimace at the screen like this: ) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/87 "2011-10-10T23:58:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What, just to keep it out of any other power’s hands?! Did the Brits really think that way, then?! It was a common way of thinking apparently. My understanding is that’s the main reason the US became involved in Hawaii, because Britain, Russia and Japan were all eying it. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/88 "2011-10-11T00:56:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, no, serious question. > > (When I’m joking, I will grimace at the screen like this: ) Well, all of the colonial powers were watching what the other colonial powers were doing, and trying to interfere with those activities. So I’d say the answer is yes, that’s how the British thought - if your rivals seem to be interested in a piece of territory, it’s worth getting in there first. Even if you can’t actually win, you might still try to ensure your rival also fails - hence the French at Yorktown, and the logic behind British support of the Munroe Doctrine. The proposal was that the British wouldn’t have bothered with Australia if they could have sent convicts to North America instead. I disagree: the British didn’t see Australia and think “Wow! That would be an excellent penal colony!” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/89 "2011-10-11T03:39:45Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Do you have a cite for what those rates were? A Smithsonian exhibit about three years ago painted a very different picture: Britain won the French and Indian War by breaking the bank and outspending the French by a wide margin, and paid for it by levying a hefty tax on the American colonists (reasoning that the colonists should pay for their own defense, and for maintaining a large and standing British military presence for decades to come). Like you, they didn’t mention any specific rate, but they made it sound pretty considerable. And no one in America was amassing the kind of fortunes that their landed counterparts in England had. According to this [site](http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/baack.war.revolutionary.us), _“taxes were significantly higher in Britain than in the colonies. One estimate suggests the per capita tax burden in the colonies ranged from two to four percent of that in Britain.”_ and _“The actual level of taxation appeared to be relatively modest. After all, the Americans soon after adopting the Constitution taxed themselves at far higher rates than the British had prior to the Revolution.”_ ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/90 "2011-10-11T03:48:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [shrug] If the colonists had been granted their independence 10 years earlier, they still would have got caught up in it, if France wanted their territory. The French didn’t, really. The F&I was simply a part of the grand game of European power-grabbing. The French didn’t really want the colonies, or at least recognized they probably couldn’t hold them. The fun thing is that ZGoerge Washingtonw as sorta involved in starting it. The spark which set things off was a scouting mission he led. At some point, they met some Frenchmen and somebody started shooting. It’s never been clear who, though it’s almsot certain no officer on either side gave the order, so probably it was some idiot private. That said, the French and British really, really wanted to go at it anyway, so they had an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/91 "2011-10-11T03:51:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If not Britain, then probably the Netherlands, which already had the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia) right next to Australia. A lot of the early European exploration of Australia was done by the Dutch (Willem Janszoon, Dirk Hartog, Frederick de Houtman, Abel Tasman, and Willem de Vlamingh) and the continent was originally named Nieuw Holland. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/92 "2011-10-11T13:29:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A lot of the early European exploration of Australia was done by the Dutch (Willem Janszoon, Dirk Hartog, Frederick de Houtman, Abel Tasman, and Willem de Vlamingh) and the continent was originally named Nieuw Holland. So, what’s Dutch for, “G’day, mate!”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/93 "2011-10-11T13:31:36Z")
It’s conceivable that Australia would have gone like America or Africa (big place, after all) – one Euro power claims and colonizes one stretch of coastline, and another power colonizes another, and so on. Eventually they brush up against each other, and either fight or work out a treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/94 "2011-10-11T15:28:39Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Do you have a cite for what those rates were? A Smithsonian exhibit about three years ago painted a very different picture: Britain won the French and Indian War by breaking the bank and outspending the French by a wide margin, and paid for it by levying a hefty tax on the American colonists (reasoning that the colonists should pay for their own defense, and for maintaining a large and standing British military presence for decades to come). Like you, they didn’t mention any specific rate, but they made it sound pretty considerable. And no one in America was amassing the kind of fortunes that their landed counterparts in England had. Alvin Rabushka’s (he’s the flat tax guy) “Taxation in Colonial America” claims that British tax burdens were 10 or more times American ones, and, as points out, there was enormous tax avoidance in America that in effect lowered the rate. I’d check out that book, though, because he does give real numbers. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/95 "2011-10-11T15:31:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, what’s Dutch for, “G’day, mate!”? It’s… [slurred Dutch accent]Wanna toke, mann?[/s D a] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/96 "2011-10-11T23:16:58Z")
BTW, if you’re interested in AH, check out [Uchronia!](http://www.uchronia.net/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011/97 "2011-10-14T16:16:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > An even more interesting AH would be if, at the time of the [Acts of Union of 1707,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707) somebody had said, “Hey, what about the colonies? Let’s give at least one seat to every colony, it will make them feel more, you know, included,” or however an English statesman of the day might have put that. At the time the colonies were so underpopulated that it would make little difference politically, but by the time of the French and Indian War, the American presence in Parliament would be significant. Probably American MPs would have **demanded** Imperial troops to protect British America and, after, it would have made it difficult to complain about slightly higher taxes. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A good constitutional compromise would be the creation of a new American Parliament for the Kingdom (call it that, not a Dominion, to recognize constitutional equality) of America; plus a new Imperial Parliament, meeting in London (at least to start with), sovereign over all and with representatives from all parts of the Empire, and a new Imperial Government separate from the British Government. The Imperial Government and Parliament to have jurisdiction at least over all matters of foreign policy, military policy, and trade within and outside the Empire. Oh, and the King takes the new title of “Emperor of the British Empire” or “Emperor of the British Isles,” in addition to “King of America,” where he is represented by a Viceroy, who has about as much power – and prestige – in America as the King has in Britain. America would be a good place to send a Prince of Wales to give him something to do. (Remember that tension in _The Madness of King George?)_ Suppose we put these together? When the [Acts of Union of 1707](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707) merged the kingdoms of England and Scotland, there was plenty of resistance and dissatisfaction among Scots and rumors that the English had bribed members of the Scottish Parliament. OTOH, the Kingdom of Ireland (dominated by the Anglo-Irish Ascendancy class) was left out of the new union (the Wiki article does not say why), and wanted in on it: > [@](#): > > Ireland, the third of the “sister kingdoms”, was not included in the union. It remained a separate kingdom and indeed was legally subordinate to Great Britain until 1784. > > Ireland’s benefits from the Union of 1707 were few. Its preferential status in trade with England now extended to Scotland. However, Ireland was left unequal and unrepresented in the Parliament of Great Britain. > > In July 1707 each House of the Parliament of Ireland passed a congratulatory address to Queen Anne, praying that “May God put it in your royal heart to add greater strength and lustre to your crown, by a still more comprehensive Union”.[23] The British government did not respond to the invitation and an equal union between Great Britain and Ireland was out of consideration until the 1790s. The union with Ireland finally came about on 1 January 1801. And then the Irish had a problem with **that,** as we all know. It would not have taken much political imagination, in 1707, to come up with a constitutional compromise: 1. A new state is created, “The British Empire” or “The Empire of the British Isles,” sovereign over all the kingdoms and states and islands of the British Isles and their dependencies. Queen Anne becomes “Empress of the British Isles,” but retains all her other royal titles, Queen of England, Queen of Scotland, Queen of Ireland, Duke of Normandy, etc. 2. The kingdoms and parliaments and governments of England, Scotland and Ireland, are left in place (and Wales might be split off as a separate principality/kingdom of the Empire). 3. A new Imperial Parliament is created, with members from each kingdom, as well as each colony or Crown dependency (Man, Jersey, etc.). The Imperial Lords could be new creations of the Crown or elected representatives of the royal Houses of Lords, the members of the Commons could be elected directly or by their home legislatures. A new Imperial Government (separate from England’s, but hiving off some of its agencies) is formed; it has the same relationship to Parliament as England’s. Its functions include, at the very least, all foreign, military and trade policy. 4. All English colonies in the New World are federated as the new Kingdom of America, with its own Parliament, PM, and Viceroy/G-G. That arrangement might hold the Empire together in the long run. Even Ireland – their political agitation would be focused on getting votes for Catholics and Catholics into the Irish and Imperial Parliaments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britain-gave-its-american-colonies-parliament-seats/599011.md?page=4)