# BritDopers (and nosy foreigners) - The general election 2010 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2010, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133 "2010-04-06T11:13:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/681 "2010-05-08T10:23:11Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > Or perhaps, you can have every damn thing you want AND a referendum, but no more, on PR, and if you’ll just excuse me I have to go make a call to my friends at the Daily Mail… Personally, I think the influence of the “Tory press” is overstated. They print what their readers want to read, as much as they try to lead opinion. I mean, for all their support Cameron didn’t get a majority, did he? Anyway, does anyone know what the opinion polls say about a referendum on PR? I would have guessed that it would be a popular idea. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/682 "2010-05-08T11:08:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If the LibDems form a coalition with Labour it will be almost certainly weak and unpopular as the largest party in Parliament will not be in the majority government. That is exactly the situation we have in Sweden (regarding size, not the strength and popularity bits): > **[2006 Swedish general election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_general_election,_2006)** > > Göran Persson > Social Democrats > Fredrik Reinfeldt > Moderate > General elections were held in Sweden on 17 September 2006, to elect members to the Riksdag, the Swedish national legislature. All 349 seats were up for election: 310 fixed seats in 29 constituencies and 39 adjustment seats, used to ensure that parties have representation in the Riksdag proportional to their share of the national vote. The electoral system used was semi-open list proportional representation using the Sainte-Laguë metho... There are two main coalitions, the right-wing “Alliance for Sweden” and the left-wing red-green block. The largest party by far was the Social Democrats with 35% of the vote. The next largets was the Moderates with 26% of the vote, yet the Prime Minister is from the Moderates as the “Alliance for Sweden” has a very slim majority (only 2%). I don’t have a vote here, as I am not a citizen, but I am sure I would have voted for a member of the red-green block. Having said that, there is no way you could describe the current government as weak and as far as popularity goes well, sometimes they are popular and sometimes they are not. That’s politics. A major poll in the last weak showed that if there was an election today the Alliance would get voted back in, yet a year ago the red-green lot would have made it. A lot of utter bullshit has been said by both Labour and the Tories in the run up to the election regarding coalitions and hung parliaments. I put the poor performance of the LibDems (and for the record, I didn’t vote as I felt I had no real connection to any party) down to this negative campaigning by Labour and the Tories, which was especially weird as the Tories moaned about others trying to use “scare tactics” when that is exactly what they did regarding hung parliaments. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/683 "2010-05-08T12:27:38Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > Did anyone notice that Michelle Gildernew, SF, won her seat in Fermanagh by 4 votes ?! 21304 to 21300. Surely that is well within the counting error, it’s like two hundreths of a percent difference. Seems very unfair to give her the nod on what is basically a dead heat, but I guess a decision has to be made. Funnily enough, a friend of mine from that constituency was telling me the other day that when he lived in another area someone tried to use his vote. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/684 "2010-05-08T12:30:49Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Brown is now toast no doubt, the only question is how long’s he going to remain in the toaster for? Nick Clegg has apparently told Gordon Brown that any coalition between Lib Dems and Labour couldn’t work with Gordon still in post. 🙂 By all accounts this did not go down well… the ensuing rant by Gordon seeming to prove Clegg’s point about the impossibility of working with such a “difficult” character (cf. [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12397659) where certain pro-Gordon cheerleaders try to pretend he’s all sweet reason and light… looks like that’s not quite the true picture after all!) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/685 "2010-05-08T12:36:39Z")
How long was he in power? And when did the accusations that he was a big bully start? Just curious whether you know exactly when these comments began. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/686 "2010-05-08T12:41:46Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > How long was he in power? And when did the accusations that he was a big bully start? > > Just curious whether you know exactly when these comments began. From his time in No. 11 as chancellor, well before he became leader. And as soon as be moved into No 10 members of his own party were predicting that Brown would be a “f\*cking awful Prime Minister”, and cabinet ministers went on TV saying “it won’t be long before you’re all saying ‘I wish we could have Tony Blair back’”. This is not recent news. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/687 "2010-05-08T12:45:22Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > From his time in No. 11 as chancellor, well before he became leader. > > And as soon as be moved into No 10 members of his own party were predicting that Brown would be a “f\*cking awful Prime Minister”, and cabinet ministers went on TV saying “it won’t be long before you’re all saying ‘I wish we could have Tony Blair back’”. > > This is not recent news. So, carry on. Who made these allegations, and is there any likelihood of it being disgruntled Labour party members, or those with axes to grind, who made them? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/688 "2010-05-08T12:50:02Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > How long was he in power? And when did the accusations that he was a big bully start? > > Just curious whether you know exactly when these comments began. He’s been PM since June 2007, when Blair stepped down. The claims that his behaviour has been bullying have dogged him pretty much since then, some more recent ones have just popped up. Given his pre-election blunder it wouldn’t really surprise me if the allegations have a grain of truth. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/689 "2010-05-08T12:54:52Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Nick Clegg has apparently told Gordon Brown that any coalition between Lib Dems and Labour couldn’t work with Gordon still in post. 🙂 > > By all accounts this did not go down well… the ensuing rant by Gordon seeming to prove Clegg’s point about the impossibility of working with such a “difficult” character This was reported in the Sun. The BBC subsequently reported it as being nonsense. Who to believe… ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/690 "2010-05-08T13:04:28Z")
Can we have a ban on using “news” reports from The Sun, please? Would anyone on here use a story from the National Enquirer as a source backing up one of their comments? ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/691 "2010-05-08T13:05:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, carry on. Who made these allegations, and is there any likelihood of it being disgruntled Labour party members, or those with axes to grind, who made them? Have a read through Andrew Rawnsley’s book “The End of the Party” for wider details. Read Nick Robinson’s blog for info on Brown’s relationship with the media. David Miliband gave the warning on Question Time that we’d soon wish Blair was back. John Hutton said Brown would be a “f\*cking disaster” as PM. Watch the Sky News interview where he sulks and eventually storms off because the interviewer won’t ask the questions \*he \*wants to answer. Tom Bradby (one of ITN’s most inoffensive reporters) wrote: > [@](#): > > Interviewing [Brown] is emotionally complicated.He doesn’t seem to understand that we are here to ask difficult questions and test his arguments by establishing contrary positions. He nearly always tells us we are wrong, both on and off camera, and that we have not done our research. He often gets angry, sometimes sulks and from time to time looks brutally hurt. Andrew Rawnsley, Adam Boulton, Nick Robinson, Tom Bradby… these are all experienced political journalists, and although they have a story to chase you cannot simply dismiss their reports as partisan or one-sided. Read the details of the bullying investigation run by the Cabinet Office, and the notes that the head of the Civil Service sent to Brown to tell him not to treat his staff badly. The problem is with your phrase “those with axes to grind”… that seems a intellectually cheap way of claiming that any criticism of Brown is politically / personally / commercially motivated and can therefore be discounted. Sadly if the myriad reports all over the media, from his Dept and his own party are not enough to convince you that Gordon is a w\*anker I can’t see what would. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/692 "2010-05-08T13:06:08Z")
You more of a Daily Star man, Ivan? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/693 "2010-05-08T13:10:02Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > You more of a Daily Star man, Ivan? Daily Mirror man, through and through. It has the best horse racing layout of any of the tabloids. And I do like the idea of a mirror that reflects society, even if it is a bit smudged in places. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/694 "2010-05-08T13:16:36Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Sadly if the myriad reports all over the media, from his Dept and his own party are not enough to convince you that Gordon is a w\*anker I can’t see what would. This is all very well, but has nothing to do with the issue; **ivan** was specifically doubting one claimed instance of bastardliness, which has been refuted quite strongly by both Labour and Lib Dem sources. The latter in particular would have no real reason to do so if it were true, since a Brown exit is something they surely desire. Just because Gordon is a tetchy sod (and he clearly is) doesn’t mean we should accept any story we’re given that plays to this reputation. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/695 "2010-05-08T13:33:01Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > This is all very well, but has nothing to do with the issue; **ivan** was specifically doubting one claimed instance of bastardliness, which has been refuted quite strongly by both Labour and Lib Dem sources. The latter in particular would have no real reason to do so if it were true, since a Brown exit is something they surely desire. > > Just because Gordon is a tetchy sod (and he clearly is) doesn’t mean we should accept any story we’re given that plays to this reputation. This is what the BBC reported initially said: [QUOTE=Jon Sopel] The senior Lib Dem source I spoke to said it was a diatribe, it was a rant, and that Gordon Brown was threatening in his approach to Nick Clegg and that Nick Clegg came off the phone at the end of it feeling that whilst political the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats may not be that far apart, actually the person in the shape of Gordon Brown would be someone it would be impossible to enter a partnership with because of his general attitude towards working with other people. And the conversation sounded pretty terrible, according to this Liberal Democrat source. [/quote] The offical denial from the Lib Dems reads: [QUOTE=Lib Dem Spokesman] There was a conversation yesterday afternoon, but any suggestion that it was in any way angry or hostile would be wrong. It was perfectly amicable and both men just set out what they said in their public statements. [/quote] Obviously the nature of UK political reporting is such that unless you get quotes on tape (i.e. “that bigotted woman”) they are always couched in terms like “a senior source said”, or “sources close to the PM” etc, which makes it hard to confirm or reject any given story. Nevertheless it still highlights the fact that Brown’s personal reputation is such that stories such as these are plausible, and that on its own (however unfair it might seem) might make his continued role in any coalition leadership untenable. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/696 "2010-05-08T13:38:55Z")
Call me old-fashioned, but I don’t want to see “cuddly and approachable” on any PM of mine’s resumes. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/697 "2010-05-08T13:44:55Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Call me old-fashioned, but I don’t want to see “cuddly and approachable” on any PM of mine’s resumes. But “emotionally stunted, bullying thug” is OK? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/698 "2010-05-08T13:48:32Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Nevertheless it still highlights the fact that Brown’s personal reputation is such that stories such as these are plausible, and that on its own (however unfair it might seem) might make his continued role in any coalition leadership untenable. Well, I think his continued role is pretty much untenable anyway, but while I certainly agree that Brown’s established character is in line with this story, that doesn’t make it _true_. Its plausibility just means it echoes around the twitterverse, and rapidly becomes accepted fact. I also get cranky with this “a senior Lib Dem source” rubbish, although everyone does it. It’s typical of the access journalism that’s endemic in the UK. If the senior source really believes this, let him put his name behind it. Enough of this piping of snide briefings direct to the public with no attribution. There are numerous factions in the Lib Dems; maybe this is one of the Whiggish ones who’d rather see a Lib/Con alliance, and is trying to sabotage the Lib/Lab talks. Like you say, without attribution, we have no way of knowing. And Ivan, I don’t necessarily want “cuddly and approachable” either, but “incapable of taking criticism” is not an attractive trait, and at this point there’s more than enough evidence to indict Brown of that, whether or not this story regarding the phone call is true. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/699 "2010-05-08T14:28:54Z")
I get your point, but I still don’t think who gets the toughest job in the country should be decided by a personality contest. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/700 "2010-05-08T14:47:27Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I get your point, but I still don’t think who gets the toughest job in the country should be decided by a personality contest. But personality plays a big part in politics; it determines diplomatic abilities, for one thing. Brown’s personal comments on “some bigoted woman” made quite an impression on people. Even if it shouldn’t have an effect, it does, and it’s only reasonable to take that into account even when you’d prefer it didn’t happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133.md?page=36)