# BritDopers (and nosy foreigners) - The general election 2010 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2010, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133 "2010-04-06T11:13:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/881 "2010-05-12T09:09:04Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Socialists? Don’t be ridiculous. Words have meaning. If you wouldn’t call the Labour Party socialists, what the hell _would_ you call them? At least we’ll now see the end of the ‘But the Lib. Dems. have no experience of government’ argument, which was always bollocks anyway since experience often seems inversely proportionakl to competence in politicians. The Cons./Lib. Dem. coalition is actually what I was hoping for since the first debate, so I’m pretty happy with the outcome. Not so happy about settling for AV but realistically it was the best they were going to get and a decent compromise to get some sort of reform on the table. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/882 "2010-05-12T09:17:29Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The government is responsible for the laws that regulate the bankers and the financial institutions and not all European countries have had to pick up the pieces to the near same extend as the UK or have two digit deficits. That’s because not all economies rely as heavily on the financial sector as a sizable chunk of their GDP as the UK does. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > London is the world’s largest financial centre, with financial services based on two districts: ‘The City’ (the City of London) and the Docklands (particularly around Canary Wharf). The City houses the London Stock Exchange (shares and bonds), London Metal Exchange (base metal and plastic futures), Lloyds of London (insurance), and the Bank of England. The Docklands began development in the 1980s and is now home to the Financial Services Authority, as well as several important financial institutions (such as Barclays Bank, Citigroup and HSBC). There are now over 500 banks with offices in the City and Docklands, with the majority of business in London being conducted on an international basis, with established leads in areas such as Eurobonds, foreign exchange markets, energy futures and global insurance. The Alternative Investments Market has acted a growth market over the past decade, allowing London to also expand as an international equity centre for smaller firms. > > The United Kingdom’ financial exports contribute significantly towards the balance of payments. The UK has had an expanding export business in financial service, at least partly due to the presence of a regulatory structure now accepted by the Government as inadequate. > > Several other major UK cities have large financial sectors and related services, most notably Leeds, which is now the UK’s largest centre for business and financial services outside London, and the largest legal centre outside London, as well as Edinburgh, the eleventh largest banking centre in Europe and home to the Royal Bank of Scotland (the third largest bank in Europe), HBOS (owners of the Bank of Scotland), and Standard Life Insurance. The Blue Book 2006 reports that this industry added gross value of £86,145 million to the UK economy before adjustment of financial services valued at £50,165 million in 2004. > [@](#): > > Well they are member of the socialist group in the EU and internationally the Socialist International, but perhaps they themselves have used the word in vain and Social Democrats is more appropriate. Although it was my impression that the UK Labour Party, at least until Blair, has traditionally been to the left of the various Social Democratic parties of Europe proper. And yet they’ve been happily privatising various formerly public services for the last 13 years, including continuing on with the railway privatisation scheme started under John Major. You’re not going to see much change between Labour and the Conservatives in terms of “socialist” policies, especially with the current state of the economy. Labour does carry the support of the trade unions, although even they have often felt left out of the loop by the New Labour government. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/883 "2010-05-12T09:25:03Z")
There have been projections of what the results would have been under AV compared to what we got under FPTP (basically, Lib Dems do 20 seats better, Tories twenty seats worse, overall it’s no more proportional and helps Labour even more), but what I want to know is how they arrive at those projections. It might be reasonable to assume that not many people would vote 1. Conservative 2. Labour, or vice versa, and that many people would have Lib Dem as a second choice. But what about people who list just one party (or just one party that can realistically win the seat)? AIUI, if that party doesn’t win their votes are discarded, as in FPTP. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/884 "2010-05-12T10:05:30Z")
> [@The\_Urban\_Spaceman](#): > > So no proportional representation - the Lib Dems sell out for the chance of an Alternative Voting system, which can be as disproportionate as FPTP, or even more so. Utter bastards. Yes this is fucking annoying. So, in a year or so, we’ll get a referendum on AV. The question will be ‘Do you want AV or not?’ with a box for ‘Yes’ and a box for ‘No’, because any more sophisticated question would blow our fragile little minds. Then I’ll have to decide. If I tick ‘Yes’, I’ll be voting to change to a system that is generally no more proportional than FPTP. If I tick ‘No’, the Conservatives and the Daily Mail will be able to joyfully scream at the top of their lungs about how I’m one of the millions of Brits who ‘is very happy leaving our current system as it is’. :mad: Unless, that is, the LibDems actually grow a pair (can they get Balls? OK I’ll stop now) and mount a big public info campaign to inform the public what a croc AV is. But then they’d have to explain why they bent over so readily. GrrrrrrrRRRRR. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/885 "2010-05-12T10:16:56Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > …but what I want to know is how they arrive at those projections. There may well be support for the premise from polling data, but in a practical sense I believe the incantation includes; “Eye of newt and toe of frog, Wool of bat and tongue of dog” There is no practical way to estimate how a voter, who in elections past simply put “1” against their favoured candidate, will respond next election when trying to decide whether they put Labs 5th and Lib-Dems 4th or the other way around because it might make a significant difference. The abilities of the various parties to determine their flow of preferences and how closely their supporters follow it are totally unknown ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/886 "2010-05-12T10:22:44Z")
Some voters will scratch their heads in puzzlement and others will just number them in the order they find them on the ballot (in Australia this is called the ‘donkey vote’) because anything else is too difficult for them. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/887 "2010-05-12T10:29:06Z")
I’d love to know why the Lib Dems couldn’t do a deal with Labour. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/888 "2010-05-12T10:36:33Z")
Reports suggest many prominent Labour figures choked on the prospect of conceding as much as the Liberals wanted. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/889 "2010-05-12T10:39:31Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Reports suggest many prominent Labour figures choked on the prospect of conceding as much as the Liberals wanted. But it’s interesting that the Conservatives - the Lib Dems’ arch enemy - were willing to make the concessions. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/890 "2010-05-12T10:58:29Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Some voters will scratch their heads in puzzlement and others will just number them in the order they find them on the ballot (in Australia this is called the ‘donkey vote’) because anything else is too difficult for them. Indeed, but “donkey voting” is now less than 1% and that’s with compulsory voting. In the UK with optional voting, and therefor people in the polling booth who want to be there, it’s likely to be less than that in the longer term. For the first couple of polls, I’ve got no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/891 "2010-05-12T11:03:25Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > There is no practical way to estimate how a voter, who in elections past simply put “1” against their favoured candidate, will respond next election when trying to decide whether they put Labs 5th and Lib-Dems 4th or the other way around because it might make a significant difference. There is a polling method which, instead of asking voters their preferences, uses what is essentially a mock-up of a real ballot paper to get people to show their voting style. This has had some initial success although the method is relatively new and the bugs are not yet out of the system AIUI. It has the advantage of mitigating the effect that presentation of the choices has on the vote (including, one would presume, the “donkey vote”). ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/892 "2010-05-12T11:08:16Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > But it’s interesting that the Conservatives - the Lib Dems’ arch enemy - were willing to make the concessions. No, it’s more a sign of their desperation to hold onto the reins for a bit. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/893 "2010-05-12T13:29:22Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > There may well be support for the premise from polling data, but in a practical sense I believe the incantation includes; > > “Eye of newt and toe of frog, > Wool of bat and tongue of dog” > > There is no practical way to estimate how a voter, who in elections past simply put “1” against their favoured candidate, will respond next election when trying to decide whether they put Labs 5th and Lib-Dems 4th or the other way around because it might make a significant difference. They used secondary polling data from surveys as a proxy for second choice. The [Yougov](http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/959) poll for one asks the question. > [@](#): > > This is also reflected in a question asking people who their second preference party would be – more Lib Dem voters said Labour (21%) than Conservative (16%), although the party who Lib Dem voters were most likely to name as a second preference was the Greens with 30%. Conservative voters were most likely to name the Liberal Democrats as their second preference (23%), but large sections of Tory supporters named UKIP (18%) or the BNP (12%) as second choices. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/894 "2010-05-12T15:10:38Z")
Here’s the text of the actual Conservative/LibDem coalition agreement: [British Coalition Government Agreement | PDF | Deficit Reduction In The United States | Government Budget Balance](http://www.scribd.com/doc/31255232/British-Coalition-Government-Agreement) ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/895 "2010-05-12T15:36:59Z")
Here’s an easier to read link from the [Liberal-Democrats website](http://libdems.org.uk/latest_news_detail.aspx?title=Conservative_Liberal_Democrat_coalition_agreements&pPK=2697bcdc-7483-47a7-a517-7778979458ff) I don’t know why everyone’s so down, there are a lot of highlights on there; Civil Liberties The parties agree to implement a full programme of measures to reverse the substantial erosion of civil liberties under the Labour Government and roll back state intrusion. This will include: ``` * A Freedom or Great Repeal Bill. * The scrapping of ID card scheme, the National Identity register, the next generation of biometric passports and the Contact Point Database. * Outlawing the finger-printing of children at school without parental permission. * The extension of the scope of the Freedom of Information Act to provide greater transparency. * Adopting the protections of the Scottish model for the DNA database. * The protection of historic freedoms through the defence of trial by jury. * The restoration of rights to non-violent protest. * The review of libel laws to protect freedom of speech. * Safeguards against the misuse of anti-terrorism legislation. * Further regulation of CCTV. * Ending of storage of internet and email records without good reason. * A new mechanism to prevent the proliferation of unnecessary new criminal offences. ``` All of which I agree with - many non-Brits may not understand why things such as libel laws are so important right now but they have been a massive civil liberties problem lately. In addition the Lib Dems will prevent the Conservatives from being to anti-European and push harder on banking reform and I doubt they will let the inheritance tax increase through and its iffy on the ‘marriage credits’ as well - the pact says it will focus on raising the start of taxation to 10,000£ first. These are all good things imho. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/896 "2010-05-12T15:45:50Z")
What is “A Freedom or Great Repeal Bill”? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/897 "2010-05-12T15:49:25Z")
> [@Sri\_Theo](#): > > many non-Brits may not understand why things such as libel laws are so important right now but they have been a massive civil liberties problem lately. [Obnoxious British libel law is pest on the whole world](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=554844) ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/898 "2010-05-12T15:51:47Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Here’s the text of the actual Conservative/LibDem coalition agreement: [British Coalition Government Agreement | PDF | Deficit Reduction In The United States | Government Budget Balance](http://www.scribd.com/doc/31255232/British-Coalition-Government-Agreement) I’m pleased to be able to say this, but that document really does look eminently sensible. It seems to be bringing together the best of each party’s policies rather than simply ending up as the bare minimum of what each could get the other to agree on. ETA: **Elendil’s Heir** - we don’t know, it hasn’t been written yet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/899 "2010-05-12T15:55:02Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > What is “A Freedom or Great Repeal Bill”? It’s Douglas Carswell’s idea. The basic idea is that the public will comment on laws and regulations that are overly burdensome, and then a bill will be passed to repeal all the burdensome laws. ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133/900 "2010-05-12T16:09:13Z")
I’m very, very glad they’ll be adressing civil liberties. Labour has arguably been the most authoritarian government his country has seen in modern times. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britdopers-and-nosy-foreigners-the-general-election-2010/535133.md?page=46)