Apparently, I read some years ago, the “proper” English accent is supposedly an East Midlands dialect. Queen Victoria (IIRC) tried to make it the “standard” for spoken English.
- mattk (with a completely neutral Home Counties / London accent)
[rant]Welcome future teachers! Now, before we start paying you shit money, we need to make sure you know the complete history of British accents. Hello? Where’d y’all go?[/rant]
Interesting to point out that apparently Australians (that’s me) have the slackest of all English speaking accents. For example, take the words “saw” and “sore”.
Australians pronounce those words exactly the same, but Americans pronounce them differently. Americans (most of them) emphasise the R in soRe, but Aussie’s don’t. Weird huh?
How about, “we need to make sure that you know better than to repeat arrant nonsense in front of your class without making at least some attempt to check your facts against a reputable source.”
And a Yorkshire fishmonger sounds nothing like a cockney sailor or an Oxford farmer … (etc.) Most English accents are a function of the speaker’s regional origin and social class. For example, the speech of a middle-class person from Leeds might sound very different from that of a working-class person from Leeds, but it would also sound very different from that of a middle-class person from Birmingham.
When I was at school (in Sheffield) one of the teachers habitually adopted a “posh” voice in front of the class. She would pronounce glass as “glarse” and bus as “bas” and so on. The problem was, she didn’t know when to stop, so she would end up saying–I kid you not–“batcher” for butcher and “pat” for put. She once described the place they have the film festival in the South of France as “Carnnes”.
As the original poster of the “Another argument for the mandatory testing of teachers” quote, I feel the need to defend myself (well, I really don’t feel the need, but I’m kinda bored today).
Maybe the appropriate test should be psychological - see if the potential teacher has the self-confidence amd humility necessary to say to a student, “Well, I’m not sure of the answer, but I’ll look into it this weekend and get back to you.”
God, how much incorrect crap I have in my brain foisted upon me by teachers too lazy, too arrogant, or too ideologically constrained to actually learn their subjects, I cannot begin to tell you.
V.
It’s interesting that someone who has trouble distinguishing different UK accents should be able to do so with the characters from The Good Life. Maybe the ‘warm’ and ‘snootiness’ comes from the acting. To most English people, Penelope Keith, Paul Eddington, Richard Briars and Felicity Kendal have very posh home counties accents (although if you listen carefully you can pick up the fact that FK was brought up in India).
BTW: What is this thing that American people have about Benny Hill? Whenever they want to criticise our humor they always use him as an example of British comedy. As far as I’m aware, they haven’t shown The Benny Hill show in Britain since the 1980’s (when it was on ITV), and it’s almost unanimously regarded as total dross. Do you really still get it on American TV?!
Subtitling English into English is just slightly annoying, but dubbing is beyond stupid. Personally I’m still pissed that I have to watch Mad Max with the idiodic dubbing(I think the main Mad Max’s voice is the same guys they use to dub most foreign porn into English).
P.S. Does anyone know If anyone sells an undubbed DVD version of Mad Max for NTSC 60 yet?
If the course was one on dialects and accents then I might be more critical of her, but you can’t really expect a high school English teacher to know the entre history of British dialects. I doubt most university English professors would know that just off the cuff.
Yeah, she probably should have told the student she didn’t know or she’d have to look it up. But as long as we keep hiring our teachers from a pool of mortal human beings, they are going to make occasional mistakes.
If we start calling people lazy, arrogant or constrained because they accidentally pass on false information as truth, then every poster to this forum has been lazy, arrogant or constrained at some point in their posting career. Plus, I’d have to accuse my mother of being a horrible parent because she told me that I was damaging my eyes by reading in dim light. What a bunch of incorrect crap.
Mortal human beings are occasionally wrong. That’s why we have the Straight Dope.
And did anybody see the last episode of Frasier that was broadcast in the UK (the one where Daphne elopes with Niles on the eve of her wedding)?
It was never explained why Daphne, who is clearly from Lancashire / Manchester, as is her mother, should have a brother who is clearly from south London and another brother who sounds like a New Zealander.
Coolness, dude. I wasn’t criticising British humour per se. My point was only to express surprise that the Benny Hill Show was ever shown on PBS. PBS is the Public Broadcasting Station. It depends on grants and donations to survive, and normally shows only programs of an educational or quality nature.
They also showed Fawlty Towers, the Good Life, Monty Python, the Goodies, the Young Ones, loads of excellent BBC series,
etc – so you can see why Benny Hill stuck out like a fairly sore thumb. I would sit there staring at the screen thinking, “Why? Why?”
Stompy
These are all as you say ‘excellent’ in their own way, but what about stuff from the 90’s? Do you get any of the following?:
The Fast Show
League of Gentlemen
Knowing me knowing you with Alan Partridge
Father Ted
Also, I notice that whenever I look up Rowan Atkinson’s name on the http://www.I get inundated with references to Mr Bean. Now, Mr Bean is okay I suppose, but as far as I’m concerned Rowan atkinson’s finest thirteen and a half hours were as Edmond Blackadder, so what’s all the fuss about Mr Bean?
League of Gentlemen will be on U.S. cable in a week or so, apparently. I haven’t heard of the others.
I agree about Blackadder. But unfortunately, Mr. Bean got a feature film, and Edmond, Baldrick, and the gang did not.
“I have a plan so cunning you could brush your teeth with it.”
I’ve never seen Mr Bean. I agree, Blackadder was totally brilliant, but I only saw it once I moved to the UK.
The other shows mentioned may well have been shown on PBS, but I don’t recall having seen them.
“The League of Gentlemen” is about to start on Comedy Central, although it’s currently available on BBC America. I agree that Rowan Atkinson’s “Blackadder” is far superior to Mr. Bean. As for the “Good Life” comments I made earlier, what I meant to say that Margo & Jerry’s accents SOUND “snooty” while Tom & Barbara’s SOUND “warmer” and I’m sure a lot of it comes from the acting.
Take “Red Dwarf” for example. There’s an obvious difference between Rimmer and Lister. It took awhile to get accustomed to Lister’s accent. I haven’t heard the actor outside of the show, so I don’t know what he sounds like when he’s not acting.
How do UK citizens feel when their accents or localities are being protrayed in film?
Won’t be hearing many British accents in that one …
He (Craig Charles) was first known as a kind of ‘humorous’ poet, and sounds exactly the same in real life. It’s a ‘scouse’ (Liverpool) accent.
Mr Blue Sky,
Rimmer and Lister have completely different regional accents: Craig Charles is from Liverpool and Chris Barrie is from the south east of England (probably Greater London). In terms of accent, Paul Eddington and Richard Briers in The Good Life are virtually indistinguishable. They both speak with the standard “neutral” received pronunciation (RP) that actors of their generation were taught at drama school, as does Felicity Kendall. The programme is set, IIRC, in Surbiton, which is a short distance south-west of London and RP is a standardised variant of the dominant accent in the south east of England. Penelope Keith, on the other hand, has a posher accent than the other three, which is detectable in the vowel sounds in words like “house” and “glass” which are slightly more complex and drawn-out.
I very rarely hear my own region’s accent (South Yorkshire) on film or television. The only films I can think of that have featured a South Yorkshire accent are Kes, The Full Monty and Brassed Off. It annoys me that London is so over-represented in the British media, and that many foreigners’ concept of what constitutes a “British” accent is RP or London.
I think that Hollywood’s over-use of British (particularly English) actors as villains is beginning to border on the racist. It seems that every second or third Hollywood movie features an English villain. The most egregious example was Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, where all the characters were supposed to be English (or Anglo-Norman), but only the villain was played by an English actor. Hannibal Lector is American in both books and English in both films (played by a Scottish and a Welsh actor, respectively). There are plenty more, more recent, examples.
As for spectacular errors in regional accents, see my comments on Frasier, above.
***TomH:**As for spectacular errors in regional accents, see my comments on Frasier, above. *
It’s possible. My wife is from deep in the heart of Maine. Her parents, sister, and brother all have strong Mainer accents. But hers is non-existant most of the time; every once in a while a word’ll come out with a missing or extra “r”.
Other people move and pick up the regional accent. A New Jersian friend of mine didn’t have an accent to my ear (I’m from Colorado) until she started drinking.
So possibly all the Moons grew up in Manchester, but picked up the South London and NZ accents when they moved.
P.S. - My wife laughs any time they try to simulate a New England accent on TV (usually shows set in Boston). There was a recent “The Practice” where the young defendant was speaking with an over-the-top accent, I suppose, to indicate that he wasn’t middle-class.
And on Cheers: Cliff had the only NE accent, which faded as the series progressed. And Carla had a more New York Italian accent, yet she was raised in Boston.
Actually Geordie is not merely an accent, it is also a dialect of the Tyneside and Nothumberland regions and contains a large number of words that are not part of standard English for example, ‘bairn’ and ‘hyem’ (respectively ‘child’ and ‘home’) which derive from Old English and Norse. There are also some severe pronunciations differences, for example, “Are ye gannin’ oot on the toon the neet?”, which roughly translates as “Will you be venturing into the city this evening?”.
In Newcastle upon Tyne (there are other Newcastles in the UK) you will find two distinctly different patterns of speech - the Geordie dialect is as described above, however there is another more intelligible accent called a ‘Geordie accent’, ‘Newcastle accent’ or ‘Tyneside accent’ (take your pick). This is standard English with a toned down version of the pronunciation used by true Geordies.
This reminded me of something I read, and had to go find the book. In “Frasier”, by Jefferson Graham, it gives biographies of the cast memebers (and the characters, also). Jane Leeves was born in London, but raised in East Grinstead, Sussex. She moved to the US in 1984.
John Mahoney (Martin Crane) was born in Manchester. He came to the US after high school and joined the army and worked to lose his accent.
The writers made the character of Daphne from Manchester as a nod to his hometown.