# British add an "r" sound **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 13, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223 "2011-02-13T17:41:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![JohnB\_Melb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@JohnB\_Melb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnB_Melb)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/261 "2012-08-30T23:35:52Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Please don’t tell me you rhyme pasta with “faster” I do, as do most Australians! ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/262 "2012-08-31T00:28:04Z")
Do you use “arse” to distinguish anatomy from “ass” the animal? ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/263 "2012-08-31T00:54:25Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > “Ah” and “aw” are different sounds. How can they be pronounced the same? > [@Irishman](#): > > To those of us with the cot/caught merger, they are the same sound. Sure, they are written differently, but so is “two” and “to” and “too”. Or “sea” and “see”. No, you’re pronouncing _cot_ and _caught_ the same. You’re substituting “ah” for “aw” (or vice versa), not pronouncing the two sounds the same. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/264 "2012-08-31T00:55:40Z")
> [@JohnB\_Melb](#): > > I do, as do most Australians! Antipodes are funny with pasta. John Torode, Melbourne-born chef who presents MasterChef in the UK, says “pustuh” and it really gets on my vermicelli. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/265 "2012-08-31T00:55:44Z")
I can’t hear any difference between those clips above. Even Americans get lazy to avoid the glottal stop. I think that’s why we often say “there’s” when we mean “there are”. I remember accusing Brits of dropping their R’s, which they denied. I had to prove it to them using unsuspecting subjects and pieces of paper with “Korea” and “Career” written on them. Regarding “tuna” vs “toona”, I remember reading Dickens dialog as a kid and wondering why for some characters he used “dooty” rather than “duty”. Decades later, I was down under and a gal asked me if I’d gotten something at a “Judy Free” shop. It took me the longest time to figure out what she was talking about. Judy who? She didn’t understand me either. The fun with attemtps to communicate between people who think they’re speaking the same language is endless. On that same walkabout, I walked into a burger joint, leaned my long-distance backpack against the wall, and ordered a burger. When it came with the obligatory beet, which I needed to remove, I realized I needed something to wipe my hands. I asked the lady serving me if they had any napkins. She asked me to repeat myself about 3 times, and then squinted at my backpack and said, “‘Ave you go’ a BAIBEE in 'ere?” As it turns out, what I needed were serviettes, not diapers. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/266 "2012-08-31T00:58:34Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > My dialect matches yours on all of those points. What’s your origin? Mine’s Northern Ohio. Me too, Michigan. Dija know that Toledo used to be part of Michigan? MI and OH had a scuffle; OH lost and had to take Toledo. (Actually, Toledo rocks, but it’s a well-kept secret. Even back then.) ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/267 "2012-08-31T01:06:06Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > bother, father \<- these completely rhyme to me, but some people pronounce them differently. > > Mary, merry, marry \<- I say these exactly the same, but some people say them differently. > > Cot, caught \<- completely different vowel sounds to me, some people say them the same. People pronounce _bother_ and _father_ so that they don’t rhyme??? I agree with you on all three points (grew up in southern Michigan and northeastern Illinois). And for those who pronounce _Mary_, _merry_ and _marry_ differently, I use the “Mary” pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/268 "2012-08-31T03:17:30Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > People pronounce _bother_ and _father_ so that they don’t rhyme??? I don’t know about in the US, but certainly in the UK there are accents where these words do not rhyme, including RP. Now, sorry to bring up IPA, but there really is no other way to talk about this unambiguously. The vowel in “bother” is /ɒ/ in RP, and the vowel in “father” is /a:/. However, I can find an audio example for you. Click on [the UK pronunciation here](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/bother_1?q=bother) for “bother” vs the one [here for “father.”](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/father_1?q=father) That particular sound - /ɒ/ - doesn’t exist in most American accents. It appears in the Boston accent, and perhaps a few other New England accents, but it’s not common in most American English dialects, so far as I know. It’s actually a somewhat rare sound. It also occurs in Hungarian in the plain “a” in that language. As an American, I had a bitch of a time learning exactly the right sound for that vowel. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/269 "2012-08-31T03:32:04Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Now, sorry to bring up IPA, but there really is no other way to talk about this unambiguously. I would very happily use IPA if I knew a) precisely what sounds the various symbols mean, and b) how to create said symbols on this computer… ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/270 "2012-08-31T03:34:10Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Click on [the UK pronunciation here](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/bother_1?q=bother) for “bother” vs the one [here for “father.”](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/father_1?q=father) Can’t vouch for the accuracy of the UK pronunciations, but the US one is definitely saying “farther,” not “father.” Which to me casts doubt upon the rest of it… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/271 "2012-08-31T03:38:45Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Can’t vouch for the accuracy of the UK pronunciations, but the US one is definitely saying “farther,” not “father.” Which to me casts doubt upon the rest of it… Well, you are right that the American pronunciation is off. That is definitely “farther.” But the UK pronunciations sounds right to me, from my experience, but I am not a UKer myself, as noted above. (ETA: In fact, if you go to the “farther” entry, it’s the exact same sample for both the UK and US pronunciations.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/272 "2012-08-31T03:43:27Z")
Here’s the Collins Dictionary: [Bother](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/bother?showCookiePolicy=true). [Father.](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/father?showCookiePolicy=true) Totally different vowel sounds, and those correspond to my other cite. Don’t know how Cambridge butchered the American pronunciation of “father,” though. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/273 "2012-08-31T04:10:25Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > And why would the “cot/caught” merger involve the “ah” vowel? Neither of those words contains that vowel! > > Yes, I know, many Americans pronounce “cot” as “caht”, but to RP English speakers they are very different sounds _because “cot” has got a frickin’ “o” in it!_ 😉 > > To me, “cot”, “caht” (if it existed) and “caught” have three totally distinct vowel sounds. My username is not pronounced **Cahlahphahn** … Thanks to pulykamell, I can now provide: [cot](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/american/cot?showCookiePolicy=true) [father](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/american/father?showCookiePolicy=true) That ( **ɑ** ) is the sound I’ve been attempting to indicate with “ah” - the pronunciation which is (or at least was when I was a kid) taught in American schools as being a “short O” sound. I’d offer a link to _caught_, too, but that dictionary doesn’t pronounce it the way I do. It uses the same IPA symbol in _caught_, _caw_ and _call_, but _caw_ sounds more like “cow” while the vowels in _caught_ and _call_ sound to me more like the **ɑ**. (I use the same vowel in all three of those words, too, but not the same one that speaker is using.) And you people really need to stop keeping me up so late at night… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/274 "2012-08-31T04:43:03Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I’d offer a link to _caught_, too, but that dictionary doesn’t pronounce it the way I do. [Does this pronunciation help?](http://www.merriam-webster.com/audio.php?file=catch002&word=caught&text=%5C%3Cspan%20class%3D%22unicode%22%3E%CB%88%3C%2Fspan%3Ek%3Cspan%20class%3D%22unicode%22%3Eo%CC%87%3C%2Fspan%3Et%5C) ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/275 "2012-08-31T06:26:27Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > [“Father”](http://www.macmillandictionary.com/pronunciation/british/father) > > [“Farther”](http://www.macmillandictionary.com/pronunciation/british/farther) (spot the difference). Shirley you jest. If they were played randomly, I wouldn’t know which was which if my life depended on it. I’d swear the same link to the recording was used for both. (Manitoba, where cot = caught and rhymes with bought and all three are one syllable, bother rhymes with father — that is, bawther and fawther — and Mary = merry, but marry rhymes with **ka** -ree. BTW, nothing in this thread explains Wa_ **r** _shington that I repeatedly hear on the Sunday-morning political TV shows out of the U.S. But then again, nothing ever did. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/276 "2012-08-31T07:11:13Z")
That was my point, **Kenm**. There is no difference. Saying “spot the difference” was sarcasm. In a non-rhotic accent, father and farther sound the same. **SCAdian** , the most fundamental disconnect for me in threads like this is the description of the vowel sound in “cot” as an “ah” sound. For a Brit, o and a are totally different vowels. I remember a poster on here with the name **Bob Loblaw** , which I found out was meant to be a play on “blah blah blah”. A Brit would never make that connection, because the vowels are so totally different. ---
**Author:** ![JohnB\_Melb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@JohnB\_Melb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnB_Melb)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/277 "2012-08-31T08:17:35Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Do you use “arse” to distinguish anatomy from “ass” the animal? Indeed. I don’t possess an ass, but I do have an arse. ---
**Author:** ![JohnB\_Melb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@JohnB\_Melb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnB_Melb)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/278 "2012-08-31T08:21:55Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Antipodes are funny with pasta. John Torode, Melbourne-born chef who presents MasterChef in the UK, says “pustuh” and it really gets on my vermicelli. A common pronunciation here is also “pahsta” with the emphasis on the first syllable and the 2nd syllable’s vowel being pretty much indeterminate. ---
**Author:** ![JohnB\_Melb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@JohnB\_Melb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnB_Melb)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/279 "2012-08-31T08:28:18Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Can’t vouch for the accuracy of the UK pronunciations, but the US one is definitely saying “farther,” not “father.” Which to me casts doubt upon the rest of it… I agree, the US one is definitely “farther”. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/280 "2012-08-31T11:07:07Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > “Pass” has the same vowel as “father” in my southern English accent, as do “bath”, “calm” and “raft”. In a northern accent, “calm” and “father” would probably still have the same vowel, similar to mine (I don’t have a northerner on hand to check) whereas “bath” and “raft” would have a shorter vowel, as in “hat” or “batter”. In a strong northern accent “father” would have the same “a” sound as “bat”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=15)