# British add an "r" sound **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 13, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223 "2011-02-13T17:41:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/281 "2012-08-31T14:23:49Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > In a strong northern accent “father” would have the same “a” sound as “bat”. In my mother’s original (West of Ireland) accent, father is pronounced with a _long_ “a as in bat”. In some Irish accents, including mine, vowel length is phonemic, with minimal pairs such as cam and calm, cant and can’t, distinguished only by the length of the vowel. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/282 "2012-08-31T14:28:11Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > In a northern accent, “calm” and “father” would probably still have the same vowel, similar to mine (I don’t have a northerner on hand to check) whereas “bath” and “raft” would have a shorter vowel, as in “hat” or “batter”. I just want to point out that the difference between these two vowels is not length, but frontness and backness. They are two completely different vowels, even though they happen to be written with the same letter. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/283 "2012-08-31T14:37:17Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I’d offer a link to _caught_, too, but that dictionary doesn’t pronounce it the way I do. > [@pulykamell](#): > > [Does this pronunciation help?](http://www.merriam-webster.com/audio.php?file=catch002&word=caught&text=%5C%3Cspan%20class%3D%22unicode%22%3E%CB%88%3C%2Fspan%3Ek%3Cspan%20class%3D%22unicode%22%3Eo%CC%87%3C%2Fspan%3Et%5C) Yes! Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/284 "2012-08-31T14:39:13Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Pasta. > > Please don’t tell me you rhyme pasta with “faster” For me, “pasta” and “faster” have the same vowel (although they don’t rhyme, because I pronounce the r in “faster”). For what it’s worth, this is fairly close to the vowel used in Italian (low, front), contrary to the belief of some Americans who think they are saying it “right” by using a back vowel. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/285 "2012-08-31T14:40:49Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I just want to point out that the difference between these two vowels is not length, but frontness and backness. They are two completely different vowels, even though they happen to be written with the same letter. Yeah, this is where the common nomenclature becomes a PITA. In American schools, for example, we were taught that a “short a” is /æ/, and “long a” is /eɪ/ as an “bat” vs “bait” (at least I think that should work for most English accents.) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/286 "2012-08-31T14:43:08Z")
> [@JohnB\_Melb](#): > > A common pronunciation here is also “pahsta” with the emphasis on the first syllable and the 2nd syllable’s vowel being pretty much indeterminate. That’s the pronunciation I was intending to get across, if I understand you. The way Americans pronounce it: [pɑːstə]. I was just hoping that nobody turns it into [pæstə], which would be a crime. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/287 "2012-08-31T14:51:44Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > That’s the pronunciation I was intending to get across, if I understand you. The way Americans pronounce it: [pɑːstə]. I was just hoping that nobody turns it into [pæstə], which would be a crime. Oh, I’ve heard that a lot, from Brits. It’s like they have to make up for all the æ’s that they “miss” (“can’t”, “last”, etc.), by sticking them in EXACTLY the Spanish or Italian words where they SHOULDN’T be – _“Nicarægua”_ – blechh! ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/288 "2012-08-31T14:58:05Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > That’s the pronunciation I was intending to get across, if I understand you. The way Americans pronounce it: [pɑːstə]. I was just hoping that nobody turns it into [pæstə], which would be a crime. The usual British pronunciation is indeed /pæstə/, I’m afraid, and yes I do say it that way, unless it’s part of an obviously Italian dish name. But the American pronunciation is just as far from the correct Italian one (/pasta/) as the British one is. The vowel certainly isn’t like the American /pɑːstə/. **JKellyMap** - using æ in Spanish and Italian words may be egregious but no worse than using ɑː like Americans do in “taco” os “mañana”. That’s just as much of a mangling of the Spanish vowel. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/289 "2012-08-31T15:03:44Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Oh, I’ve heard that a lot, from Brits. It’s like they have to make up for all the æ’s that they “miss” (“can’t”, “last”, etc.), by sticking them in EXACTLY the Spanish or Italian words where they SHOULDN’T be – _“Nicarægua”_ – blechh! But an important point is that our (British and Irish) æ is not the same as yours. To us, Americans’ æ sounds more like e. This is why it’s a little galling to hear you say that we’re saying “pasta” wrongly, when in fact we are saying it more correctly than you are (if correctness is measured by closeness to the standard Italian pronunciation). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/290 "2012-08-31T15:04:56Z")
You can compare various pronunciations [here](http://www.forvo.com/word/pasta/) for “pasta,” including Italian. That’s a great website, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/291 "2012-08-31T15:05:06Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > The usual British pronunciation is indeed /pæstə/, I’m afraid, and yes I do say it that way, unless it’s part of an obviously Italian dish name. > > But the American pronunciation is just as far from the correct Italian one (/pasta/) as the British one is. The vowel certainly isn’t like the American /pɑːstə/. I know the usual American pronunciation isn’t _exactly_ like the usual Italian one, but to my ears it’s a \*lot \*closer than the British use of “æ”. A _lot_ closer. I’m a fluent speaker of Spanish as a second language, which I am told I pronounce quite well. And, yes, sounds can be closer or farther from one another, not just “in the mind” but by more objective measures such as acoustic properties and mouth position. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/292 "2012-08-31T15:11:37Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > But an important point is that our (British and Irish) æ is not the same as yours. To us, Americans’ æ sounds more like e. > > This is why it’s a little galling to hear you say that we’re saying “pasta” wrongly, when in fact we are saying it more correctly than you are (if correctness is measured by closeness to the standard Italian pronunciation). I disagree with this. You might have a point that we process your “æ” as the same as our “æ”, and that our “æ” is even further from the Italian _a_ than your “æ” is, and thus we perceive your mispronunciation of Italian as a little worse than it actually is. In other words, you are right that the standard Italian and Spanish _a_ is just about halfway between your “æ” and our “ah” – that is, about a third of the way from our “ah” to our “æ”. But in no way, shape, or form is your “æ” _closer_ to the Italian/Spanish _a_ than our “ah”. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/293 "2012-08-31T15:27:10Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > I disagree with this. > > You might have a point that we process your “æ” as the same as our “æ”, and that our “æ” is even further from the Italian _a_ than your “æ” is, and thus we perceive your mispronunciation of Italian as a little worse than it actually is. > > In other words, you are right that the standard Italian and Spanish _a_ is just about halfway between your “æ” and our “ah” – that is, about a third of the way from our “ah” to our “æ”. But in no way, shape, or form is your “æ” _closer_ to the Italian/Spanish _a_ than our “ah”. I think you’ve understood my point, even though you disagree. In fact, I think you have expressed it better than I have. On the matter of objective measures of closeness, I am just pointing out that /ɑ/ is a back vowel while /æ/ and Spanish/Italian /a/ are both low front vowels. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/294 "2012-08-31T15:47:26Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I think you’ve understood my point, even though you disagree. In fact, I think you have expressed it better than I have. > > On the matter of objective measures of closeness, I am just pointing out that /ɑ/ is a back vowel while /æ/ and Spanish/Italian /a/ are both low front vowels. True. _Tutto bene_, then. (Two-toe bay-nay? ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/295 "2012-08-31T16:02:07Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > I disagree with this. > > You might have a point that we process your “æ” as the same as our “æ”, and that our “æ” is even further from the Italian _a_ than your “æ” is, and thus we perceive your mispronunciation of Italian as a little worse than it actually is. > > In other words, you are right that the standard Italian and Spanish _a_ is just about halfway between your “æ” and our “ah” – that is, about a third of the way from our “ah” to our “æ”. But in no way, shape, or form is your “æ” _closer_ to the Italian/Spanish _a_ than our “ah”. I think you mean “Italian/Spanish a” not _a_ ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/296 "2012-08-31T16:14:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think you mean “Italian/Spanish a” not _a_ Is that an IPA reference? Because IPA would be written as /a/, and _a_, to me in that context, refers to the letter, not the IPA symbol. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/297 "2012-08-31T16:22:46Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Is that an IPA reference? Because IPA would be written as /a/, and _a_, to me in that context, refers to the letter, not the IPA symbol. Then it was just ambiguous to me, because I assumed you meant the IPA symbol. Personally, I refer to a letter qua letter in caps: the Italian/Spanish letter _A_. I didn’t catch on that this is what you were doing. IPA is often written without enclosing slashes, especially when the topic is one particular sound rather than a pronunciation in context. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/298 "2012-08-31T16:27:05Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Then it was just ambiguous to me, because I assumed you meant the IPA symbol. Personally, I refer to a letter qua letter in caps: the Italian/Spanish letter _A_. I didn’t catch on that this is what you were doing. IPA is often written without enclosing slashes, especially when the topic is one particular sound rather than a pronunciation in context. That wasn’t me who wrote the post, but it seemed clear, as IPA wasn’t being used for the other sounds. This thread is a shining example of why IPA is not stupid and shouldn’t be regarded as some arcane method of notating pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/299 "2012-08-31T16:35:10Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > This thread is a shining example of why IPA is not stupid and shouldn’t be regarded as some arcane method of notating pronunciation. You can say that again. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/300 "2012-08-31T16:37:53Z")
As to whether the American or British pronunciation of _pasta_ is closer to Italian, I think that’s kind of a meaningless argument. Having said that, in my mind, both /a/ and /ɑ/ are both “ah” sounds, and that makes them more like each other than either is like /æ/. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=16)