# British add an "r" sound **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 13, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223 "2011-02-13T17:41:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/301 "2012-08-31T16:40:55Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I would very happily use IPA if I knew a) precisely what sounds the various symbols mean, and b) how to create said symbols on this computer… Regarding (a), what’s stopping you from learning? Regarding (b), I’ve never bothered to learn how to type the symbols. I just go to the Wikipedia page for a particular symbol and copy and paste. It’s not like I ever have to type large blocks of text, so it doesn’t bother me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/302 "2012-08-31T16:47:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Regarding (a), what’s stopping you from learning? > > Regarding (b), I’ve never bothered to learn how to type the symbols. I just go to the Wikipedia page for a particular symbol and copy and paste. It’s not like I ever have to type large blocks of text, so it doesn’t bother me. That’s what I do, too, but there is an ASCII solution to this. I can’t remember the name of it offhand, but it’s the one that uses symbols like /@/ to represent /æ/. ETA: Whoops, I got that wrong. /@/ is the schwa. I was thinking of [SAMPA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAMPA_chart_for_English) or [X-SAMPA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-SAMPA). I prefer IPA because I’m familiar with it and it is most widely used. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/303 "2012-08-31T17:22:30Z")
What is the RP for “err”? How do most Brits say it? Most Americans seem to pronounce it exactly like “air”, which I cannot bring myself to do since my English teacher trained me to say “ur”. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/304 "2012-08-31T17:32:52Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I was thinking of [SAMPA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAMPA_chart_for_English) or [X-SAMPA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-SAMPA). I prefer IPA because I’m familiar with it and it is most widely used. I think of X-SAMPA as basically just a way to notate IPA in ASCII, and not really a different system, as such. I’m alright with it if people use it; it’s easier than copy-and-pasting the actual IPA symbols, and anything along these lines is way better than “I mean ‘pAH-ster’'”… ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/305 "2012-08-31T17:36:14Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That wasn’t me who wrote the post, but it seemed clear, as IPA wasn’t being used for the other sounds. This thread is a shining example of why IPA is not stupid and shouldn’t be regarded as some arcane method of notating pronunciation. Sorry about that – it was me. As \*\*pulykamell \*\*intuited, I was trying to use _a_ to mean “the pronunciation of this letter in Spanish and Italian orthography – and I can get away with this, even though I don’t know the IPA symbol for this sound, because it pretty much always represents the same sound in the written version of these languages.” I was being lazy, in other words. I should have learned the IPA symbol for this sound, and used that, instead of mixing up apples and oranges. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/306 "2012-08-31T18:11:36Z")
> [@For You](#): > > What is the RP for “err”? How do most Brits say it? Most Americans seem to pronounce it exactly like “air”, which I cannot bring myself to do since my English teacher trained me to say “ur”. [ɜː]. So like “ur”, basically, without the final “r” in non-rhotic RP. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/307 "2012-08-31T18:47:44Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > [ɜː]. So like “ur”, basically, without the final “r” in non-rhotic RP. That’s funny! If I just let my face relax, and don’t try to form any particular phoneme at all, and just vocalize, that’s about the sound which comes out of my mouth, I think. So, I probably have said “err” in my sleep, or while in a pre-verbal drunken stupor. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/308 "2012-08-31T19:09:39Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > I think of X-SAMPA as basically just a way to notate IPA in ASCII, and not really a different system, as such. I’m alright with it if people use it; it’s easier than copy-and-pasting the actual IPA symbols, and anything along these lines is way better than “I mean ‘pAH-ster’'”… Oh, I understand that. It’s just that now I’d have to look up and learn all the X-SAMPA versions of IPA symbols, and I think more people are familiar with IPA. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/309 "2012-08-31T19:21:29Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Pasta. Thank you. For me, the first vowel in pasta is exactly the same vowel in hot, cot, father, and bother. My [IPA reference](http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm)shows “hot, rock” with this symbol /ɒ/[FONT=Trebuchet MS], and father with this symbol /ɑ:/[/FONT], but I’m hard pressed to tell the difference. > [@EmilyG](#): > > I had an Australian friend who rhymed “rear” and “idea” in a message board game. Later, I met him in real life and he explained it, and the way he said “rear” was like “rea.” So there’s the song, “Do, a dear, a female deer…” that has the line “fa, a long, long way to go”. That always seemed a real stretch to me, until I learned about non-rhotics. Suddenly, that line makes more sense. > [@Colophon](#): > > “Pass” has the same vowel as “father” in my southern English accent, as do “bath”, “calm” and “raft”. In a northern accent, “calm” and “father” would probably still have the same vowel, similar to mine (I don’t have a northerner on hand to check) whereas “bath” and “raft” would have a shorter vowel, as in “hat” or “batter”. Pass, bath, raft, hat, and batter are all the same for me, whereas father and calm are the same as each other, but different than all the rest. > [@For You](#): > > Do you use “arse” to distinguish anatomy from “ass” the animal? Here’s something I want to know: any of you who use “arse”, are you rhotic or non-rhotic? Does that come out more like _ahss_? > [@SCAdian](#): > > No, you’re pronouncing _cot_ and _caught_ the same. You’re substituting “ah” for “aw” (or vice versa), not pronouncing the two sounds the same. Thinking about it, there are times I make a distinction. Blah vs saw, for instance, those sounds are going to be slightly different. But your two letter representations are not clear. If you wish to be precise, use IPA. Because, as we have seen, your “aw” may not be my “aw”. Writing down “aw” and expecting me to hear what you do when you say that is exactly the point I was making. > [@SCAdian](#): > > I would very happily use IPA if I knew a) precisely what sounds the various symbols mean, and b) how to create said symbols on this computer… I use > **[The sounds of English and the International Phonetic Alphabet | Antimoon](https://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm)** > > All the sounds used in the English language with sound recordings and symbols in the International Phonetic Alphabet and copy/paste. > [@Colophon](#): > > [ɜː]. So like “ur”, basically, without the final “r” in non-rhotic RP. “I like to uh on the side of caution”? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/310 "2012-08-31T19:49:41Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Thank you. For me, the first vowel in pasta is exactly the same vowel in hot, cot, father, and bother. My [IPA reference](http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm)shows “hot, rock” with this symbol /ɒ/[FONT=Trebuchet MS], and father with this symbol /ɑ:/[/FONT], but I’m hard pressed to tell the difference. The sound samples don’t make the difference clear? The ɒ indicates a rounded vowel. Even if I don’t make the distinction in my own speech, I can hear the difference between ɒ and ɑ. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/311 "2012-08-31T20:05:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The sound samples don’t make the difference clear? The ɒ indicates a rounded vowel. Even if I don’t make the distinction in my own speech, I can hear the difference between ɒ and ɑ. I have to admit, the American pronunciation of /ɒ/ there doesn’t sound like what I think of as an /ɒ/. [This is more like it for me.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C9%92) and [this is the unrounded version.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_back_unrounded_vowel) Press play on the right to hear the sounds. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/312 "2012-08-31T20:37:27Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I have to admit, the American pronunciation of /ɒ/ there doesn’t sound like what I think of as an /ɒ/. [This is more like it for me.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C9%92) and [this is the unrounded version.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_back_unrounded_vowel) Press play on the right to hear the sounds. Oh, are you talking about the links to sound samples in Irishman’s link? It’s kind of set up weird, the link for the “American” /ɒ/ are actually giving the American pronunciation of “hot” and “rock,” which use /ɑ/, not /ɒ/. So those links are misleading. Well, actually, they’re wrong if you want to push it. Where you hear the difference is in the “British” links for /ɑ/ and /ɒ/. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/313 "2012-08-31T20:46:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > \ It’s kind of set up weird, the link for the “American” /ɒ/ are actually giving the American pronunciation of “hot” and “rock,” which use /ɑ/, not /ɒ/. OK, that’s what I hear. It’s a bit confusing the way it’s set up. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/314 "2012-08-31T20:48:32Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Thank you. For me, the first vowel in pasta is exactly the same vowel in hot, cot, father, and bother. My [IPA reference](http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm)shows “hot, rock” with this symbol /ɒ/[FONT=Trebuchet MS], and father with this symbol /ɑ:/[/FONT], but I’m hard pressed to tell the difference. I agree that the pronunciations of _hot_, _rock_ and _father_ at that site sound the same. However, while that site uses the same symbol for both _arm_ and _father_, the vowels as spoken there do not sound the same to me. > [@Irishman](#): > > Pass, bath, raft, hat, and batter are all the same for me, whereas father and calm are the same as each other, but different than all the rest. Agree with you on the first five, but for me _father_ and _calm_ are on opposite sides of the cot/caught line (_father_ and _cot_ vs _calm_ and _caught_). > [@Irishman](#): > > Thinking about it, there are times I make a distinction. Blah vs saw, for instance, those sounds are going to be slightly different. But your two letter representations are not clear. If you wish to be precise, use IPA. Because, as we have seen, your “aw” may not be my “aw”. Writing down “aw” and expecting me to hear what you do when you say that is exactly the point I was making. > > I use > [The sounds of English and the International Phonetic Alphabet | Antimoon](http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm) > and copy/paste. “ah” = ɒ “aw” = ɔ: (as in _call_; the vowel used in _four_ sounds very different to me) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/315 "2012-08-31T20:51:46Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > “ah” = ɒ See, for me, “ah” is /ɑ/. While /ɒ/ is not exactly “aw” in my American dialect, it’s closer to “aw” than “ah,” the way I hear it. Did you click on the samples I posted above? ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/316 "2012-08-31T20:57:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Regarding (b), I’ve never bothered to learn how to type the symbols. I just go to the Wikipedia page for a particular symbol and copy and paste. It’s not like I ever have to type large blocks of text, so it doesn’t bother me. Okay, I’ll bite: How do you go to the Wikipedia page for a particular symbol in order to copy and paste it, without first typing the symbol you’re going to copy into the Wikipedia search block? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/317 "2012-08-31T21:16:33Z")
To me /a/ and /ɑ/ = varieties of “ah” /ɒ/ and /ɔ/ = varieties of “aw” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/318 "2012-08-31T21:18:16Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Okay, I’ll bite: How do you go to the Wikipedia page for a particular symbol in order to copy and paste it, without first typing the symbol you’re going to copy into the Wikipedia search block? Personally, I just Wikipedia for “English Phonology” or “IPA” or something like that and find it on the respective page, or link throughs. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/319 "2012-08-31T21:24:58Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Okay, I’ll bite: How do you go to the Wikipedia page for a particular symbol in order to copy and paste it, without first typing the symbol you’re going to copy into the Wikipedia search block? I do exactly what Pulykamell said, except I start [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_chart_for_English_dialects) But actually, if you look at Irishman’s link, there’s a handy way to input IPA characters and copy and paste them – [here](http://ipa.typeit.org/) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/320 "2012-08-31T21:40:31Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > So there’s the song, “Do, a dear, a female deer…” that has the line “fa, a long, long way to go”. The first word in that song is “Doe”. The word “do” is typically pronounced differently (rhymes with “dew”, IME). > [@](#): > > Here’s something I want to know: any of you who use “arse”, are you rhotic or non-rhotic? Does that come out more like _ahss_? Seems to me that every time I have heard “arse”, it has been rhoticized, possible because the speaker, who is almost always non-rhotic, wants to emphasize it. > [@](#): > > “I like to uh on the side of caution”? Bear in mind that that sentence is not a good example. The vowel sounds between “err” and “on” will receive the intrusive-r, so it will be “uhr”, not “uh”, or perhaps “uh ron”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=17)