# British add an "r" sound **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 13, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223 "2011-02-13T17:41:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![JohnB\_Melb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@JohnB\_Melb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnB_Melb)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/321 "2012-08-31T22:07:17Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > But an important point is that our (British and Irish) æ is not the same as yours. To us, Americans’ æ sounds more like e. > > This is why it’s a little galling to hear you say that we’re saying “pasta” wrongly, when in fact we are saying it more correctly than you are (if correctness is measured by closeness to the standard Italian pronunciation). I’d say that the Australian pronunciation is close to that said by “readmylips” (Canadian female), “potahto\_head” (Canadian male) and “dusich” (US male) which differs from most of the other UK/US/CA pronunciations there. The pronunciation by Heracleum (Italian male) and Aledogn (Italian male) has a similar sounding “a” in the first syllable, to that used by many Australians and the three examples mentioned earlier. The true Italian pronunciation, however, appears to stretch the emphasis on the first syllable even further than how we say it, with the 2nd syllable almost added as an afterthought! ---
**Author:** ![JohnB\_Melb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@JohnB\_Melb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnB_Melb)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/322 "2012-08-31T22:15:32Z")
> [@For You](#): > > The first word in that song is “Doe”. The word “do” is typically pronounced differently (rhymes with “dew”, IME). Oh maybe it was “Doh a deer”, Homer Simpson style ??? In Australian English, “do” and “dew” may rhyme, but don’t sound the same. “Dew” is “dyoo” while some people say it more like “jew”. > [@For You](#): > > Seems to me that every time I have heard “arse”, it has been rhoticized, possible because the speaker, who is almost always non-rhotic, wants to emphasize it. I haven’t heard “arse” rhoticised except when spoken by rhotic speakers (regional variants in Britain, and Ireland or North America) In Australia, it’s like “Ahhss”. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/323 "2012-08-31T23:25:54Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > My [IPA reference](http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm)shows “hot, rock” with this symbol /ɒ/[FONT=Trebuchet MS], and father with this symbol /ɑ:/[/FONT], but I’m hard pressed to tell the difference. I’m sorry, that is not a very useful reference. All it is is a guide for translating IPA into the author’s idea of “American”, which as you have observed is not necessarily the same as other people’s pronunciation. The “Brit” column is almost worthless. The article even admits that “one symbol can mean two different phonemes”, which seems to go against the whole point of IPA. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/324 "2012-09-01T10:40:20Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That wasn’t me who wrote the post, but it seemed clear, as IPA wasn’t being used for the other sounds. This thread is a shining example of why IPA is not stupid and shouldn’t be regarded as some arcane method of notating pronunciation. > [@Acsenray](#): > > You can say that again. [ðɪs θrɛd ɪz ə ˈʃaɪnɪŋ əgˈzæmpl əv hwaɪ aɪpiːeɪ ɪz nɑːt ˈstuːpɪd ən ˈʃʊdnt biː rəˈgɑrdəd æz sʌm ɑrˈkeɪn ˈmɛθəd əv ˈnoʊteɪtɪŋ prənʌnsiːˈeɪʃən]. [hɪər hɪər]! [fɔr hiːz ə ˈdʒɑːliː gʊd ˈfɛloʊ] ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/325 "2012-09-01T10:44:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Regarding (b), I’ve never bothered to learn how to type the symbols. I just go to the Wikipedia page for a particular symbol and copy and paste. It’s not like I ever have to type large blocks of text, so it doesn’t bother me. I just go to the page of [all](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English) of [them](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/326 "2012-09-01T10:48:10Z")
> [@For You](#): > > What is the RP for “err”? How do most Brits say it? Most Americans seem to pronounce it exactly like “air”, which I cannot bring myself to do since my English teacher trained me to say “ur”. My English teacher too tried really hard to teach me that. But failed. I can’t bring myself to say [ɝː] because it doesn’t sound like a word. It’s just a grunt. Air sounds much nicer. I defied the official pronunciation for Anita Kerr too, as Care sounds better than Cur. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/327 "2012-09-02T02:45:44Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > “ah” = ɒ > “aw” = ɔ: (as in _call_; the vowel used in _four_ sounds very different to me) > [@pulykamell](#): > > See, for me, “ah” is /ɑ/. While /ɒ/ is not exactly “aw” in my American dialect, it’s closer to “aw” than “ah,” the way I hear it. Did you click on the samples I posted above? Yes - that’s how I arrived at the answer I posted above. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/328 "2012-09-02T04:41:29Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Yes - that’s how I arrived at the answer I posted above. What dialect do you speak? [This sound](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Open_back_rounded_vowel.ogg) would be “ah” in your dialect, then? What would [this sound](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Open_front_unrounded_vowel.ogg) be? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/329 "2012-09-02T13:20:25Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > For what it’s worth, this is fairly close to the vowel used in Italian (low, front), contrary to the belief of some Americans who think they are saying it “right” by using a back vowel. > [@hibernicus](#): > > On the matter of objective measures of closeness, I am just pointing out that /ɑ/ is a back vowel while /æ/ and Spanish/Italian /a/ are both low front vowels. Actually, while /a/ is supposed to represent a low front vowel, in practice, /a/ is often used to represent a low, _central_ vowel (properly transcribed as /ä/). _That’s_ the main _A_ vowel in Spanish, Italian, German, Hindi, Bengali, and many other languages. That /a/ (really /ä/) is the one that sounds silly to American ears to replace with /æ/, because it’s an “AH” sound, like /ɑ/ is, not a æ sound. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/330 "2012-09-02T13:49:50Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Actually, while /a/ is supposed to represent a low front vowel, in practice, /a/ is often used to represent a low, _central_ vowel (properly transcribed as /ä/). _That’s_ the main _A_ vowel in Spanish, Italian, German, Hindi, Bengali, and many other languages. > > That /a/ (really /ä/) is the one that sounds silly to American ears to replace with /æ/, because it’s an “AH” sound, like /ɑ/ is, not a æ sound. I think there are a lot of perceptual issues here, but I am going to try to tease it out, and make my case as well as I can, despite the fact that I am not any kind of expert. When we hear a foreign sound, we tend to identify it with the closest sound in our own language. North American English doesn’t have a sound that is very close to the Italian [a] in pasta. Forced to choose between something like “poss-tuh” and something like “pess-tuh”, North American English speakers say “poss-tuh”. Irish and British English does have a sound that is somewhat closer to the Italian [a], namely our way of saying the English phoneme [æ]. _However_, an American listener identifies this sound with the (somewhat different) American way of saying the phoneme [æ], so it sounds to them as if we are saying “pess-tuh”. Combining the fact that Americans identify the Italian [a] with the American [ɑ] (as confirmed by your describing them both as a “AH” sound), and that they identify the Irish/British [æ] with the American [æ], it is not surprising that they perceive our mispronunciation as being more egregious than their mispronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/331 "2012-09-02T14:08:55Z")
Yes, I think ascenray and Hibernicus have it right. I learned something new from this exchange, and I won’t disparage the British use of the ae sound for Spanish or Italian letter a quite so harshly in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/332 "2012-09-02T15:02:06Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > Combining the fact that Americans identify the Italian [a] with the American [ɑ] (as confirmed by your describing them both as a “AH” sound), and that they identify the Irish/British [æ] with the American [æ], it is not surprising that they perceive our mispronunciation as being more egregious than their mispronunciation. I think this basically accords with what I’m saying. If I had any quibble, it would just be with this: > [@](#): > > Irish and British English does have a sound that is somewhat closer to the Italian [a], namely our way of saying the English phoneme [æ]. I don’t think it really is accurate to say that the Irish-British /æ/ is really significantly closer to Italian (etc.) /ä/ in any objective way. So far as I am concerned, the American /æ/ and the Irish-British /æ/ are quite close to each other, and about as equally distant from /ä/. I suppose the Irish-British /æ/ is slightly closer to /a/, but then again part of my assertion here is that we’re really talking about /ä/, not /a/. That might just be a personal bias, though, because I actually do have an /ä/ in my speech that I distinguish from /ɑ/ and /ɒ/ (and I _don’t_ have an /a/), which is unusual for people with my accent. So when I hear people substituting Spanish/Italian/etc. /ä/ for _any_ other low vowel, it stands out as “wrong” to my ear. So both Hiberno-British [pæstə] _and_ American [pɑːstə] sound wrong to me, because it “should” be [pästä] So with the father-bother issue – 1. Those without merger say /fɑːðɚ/ and /bɒðɚ/ 2. Those with merger say /fɑːðɚ/ and /bɑːðɚ/ 3. I say /fäðɚ/ and either /bɑːðɚ/ or /bɒðɚ/ I suppose in Irish speech, they’re even more separated, as /faðɚ/ and /bɒðɚ/ ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/333 "2012-09-02T16:38:10Z")
For all those that are contributing to this thread you do realise that there isn’t any objective “correct” way of pronouncing any word don’t you? (though I’d concede you do get to clarify how you pronounce your own name) I know we’ve expended a lot of keystrokes in knocking various concepts about but all it boils down to is a variation of “they talk funny in that next village” which has been played out since time immemorial. As long as you make yourself understood then your pronunciation is serving its purpose. Introducing an “r” sound into pasta (as some USA people do) doesn’t prevent me from knowing that you are requesting a durum wheat based foodstuff. So…what are we trying to achieve here other than confirm what we already know? i.e. language is fluid, other people talk funny and the concept of “British” pronunciation is a myth. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/334 "2012-09-02T16:46:38Z")
Novelty Bobble, I hear what you’e saying, and most of us at the Dope tand to lean a bit more toward the descriptivist camp, so not to worry…BUT, this thread is not so much about mere variation _within_ a language, but rather variation within a language of attempts to pronounce a sound which only exists in a _different_ language. So, that’s why, in this case, we’re leaning a bit more toward prescriptivist discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/335 "2012-09-02T16:57:20Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Novelty Bobble, I hear what you’e saying, and most of us at the Dope tand to lean a bit more toward the descriptivist camp, so not to worry…BUT, this thread is not so much about mere variation _within_ a language, but rather variation within a language of attempts to pronounce a sound which only exists in a _different_ language. So, that’s why, in this case, we’re leaning a bit more toward prescriptivist discussions. Not sure I understand what you mean by descriptivist and prescriptivist. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/336 "2012-09-02T17:19:37Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Not sure I understand what you mean by descriptivist and prescriptivist. “Descriptivists” tend to prefer just describing language the way people speak (and/or write), while “prescriptivists” tend to prefer instructing people on how they _should_ speak and/or write. Because there are standard forms of languages that are (fundamentally arbitrarily) appropriate for certain social settings or written forms of communication, there is certainly a place for prescriptivists in all our lives. But academic linguists tend to be much more descriptivist, and it’s important to have that kind of analysis in our lives, too. Dictionaries tend to try to have it both ways, and each dictionary is known for its particular brand of compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/337 "2012-09-02T17:29:49Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Introducing an “r” sound into pasta (as some USA people do) We most certainly do not. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/338 "2012-09-02T17:35:45Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > We most certainly do not. Novelty Bobble is English. He’s hearing the US “-ah” (see hibernicus and ascenray’s exchange, above) as an “r-colored ‘a’ in non-rhotic British English”. (He _could_ be referring to the “intrusive r” some people put after a word ending in a vowel if the next word begins with one – see second post of this thread – but I doubt it.) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/339 "2012-09-02T17:52:26Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > We most certainly do not. That long drawing out of the word certainly sounds like an “r” to me. It corresponds to exactly my pronunciation of “part” “car” “hard” etc. So the only way I can describe it is by reference to the insertion of an r. I’m sure you don’t think of it as an “r” sound but that is how it sounds to me. (and as I said, there is a split in British english that does exactly the same thing) Which brings me back to my point. You say the word “pasta” differently to me, that is all. Neither you or I, nor even the Italians are “correct”. If any of us use a variation of that word and we remain understood then that is fine. It has served the purpose and is “correct” by the only definition that matters. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/340 "2012-09-02T17:54:10Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Novelty Bobble is English. He’s hearing the US “-ah” (see hibernicus and ascenray’s exchange, above) as an “r-colored ‘a’ in non-rhotic British English”. > > (He _could_ be referring to the “intrusive r” some people put after a word ending in a vowel if the next word begins with one – see second post of this thread – but I doubt it.) correct, the first paragraph that is, I was referring to the drawing out of the first “a” in “pasta”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=18)