# British add an "r" sound **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 13, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223 "2011-02-13T17:41:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/341 "2012-09-02T18:00:44Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > “Descriptivists” tend to prefer just describing language the way people speak (and/or write), while “prescriptivists” tend to prefer instructing people on how they _should_ speak and/or write. > > Because there are standard forms of languages that are (fundamentally arbitrarily) appropriate for certain social settings or written forms of communication, there is certainly a place for prescriptivists in all our lives. But academic linguists tend to be much more descriptivist, and it’s important to have that kind of analysis in our lives, too. Dictionaries tend to try to have it both ways, and each dictionary is known for its particular brand of compromise. Thanks for that explanation. I confess I don’t have much time for the prescriptivist approach as you have described it. For the written form, yes. I see the sense in agreeing a spelling for when the word has to be understood in silent isolation…but the spoken word? nah! variety is the spice of life as far as I’m concerned. Some background may be helpful here. I grew up in the north-east of England in a rural location where the word “home” could be pronounced very differently if you cared to travel just 20 miles in any of three directions. Not surprisingly I’ve grown up with a fondness for dialect and accent. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/342 "2012-09-02T18:03:17Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > correct, the first paragraph that is, I was referring to the drawing out of the first “a” in “pasta”. Well, there you go. Just for future reference, when we (standard rhotic) Americans put an “r” in a word, _you’ll know it_. Think “pirate jokes”. And, glad those definitions were helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/343 "2012-09-02T18:08:34Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That long drawing out of the word certainly sounds like an “r” to me. It corresponds to exactly my pronunciation of “part” “car” “hard” etc. So the only way I can describe it is by reference to the insertion of an r. > I’m sure you don’t think of it as an “r” sound but that is how it sounds to me. (and as I said, there is a split in British english that does exactly the same thing) > > Which brings me back to my point. You say the word “pasta” differently to me, that is all. Neither you or I, nor even the Italians are “correct”. If any of us use a variation of that word and we remain understood then that is fine. It has served the purpose and is “correct” by the only definition that matters. Who in this thread has used “correct” literally? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/344 "2012-09-02T19:00:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Who in this thread has used “correct” literally? I don’t think anyone has. I’m suggesting that the thread has long ago reached the point of more heat than light seeing as there is no standard to which we can refer. And this is how most pronunciation threads end up. They never really progress past the point we reached some pages ago. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/345 "2012-09-02T19:39:43Z")
And I think your suggestion is wrong. And more than a little obnoxious and high-handed. This thread, like many others, has gone through waves of being informative or uninformative, but overall it continues to offer insights into certain individuals’ perceptions. Indeed, as it has gone on, it has gotten generally _more_ informative, as now more contributors are at least trying to describe things with IPA symbols. Strangely enough, this statement of yours: > [@](#): > > That long drawing out of the word certainly sounds like an “r” to me. It corresponds to exactly my pronunciation of “part” “car” “hard” etc. So the only way I can describe it is by reference to the insertion of an r. > I’m sure you don’t think of it as an “r” sound but that is how it sounds to me. (and as I said, there is a split in British english that does exactly the same thing) … seem to suggest that you haven’t read this thread very closely at all, because in terms of objective description, it has taken a few steps backward where others have managed to take a few steps forward. When we have gotten to the point that we are describing pronunciations more accurately, for you to then start using uninformative terms along the lines of “well, it sounds like ‘inserting an R’ to me because the vowel is changing” is almost like the opposite of fighting ignorance. When we have gotten to the point that we are distinguishing among several low vowels using symbols—æ, a, ä, ɑ, ɒ, and so on—for you to then step in and say “inserting an R” when there is no way to symbolize this pronunciation with any kind of _R_ symbol (r, ɹ, ʁ, ʀ, χ, ɾ, ɽ, etc.) seems like a deliberate attempt to sabotage any progress toward informativeness that has been made in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/346 "2012-09-02T19:48:31Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I know we’ve expended a lot of keystrokes in knocking various concepts about but all it boils down to is a variation of “they talk funny in that next village” which has been played out since time immemorial. Another post that seems extremely self-important. A lot of people on these boards take quite a bit of interest in language, and people who are interest in language are often very interested in accents and pronunciation and are interested in discussing them. Some people, like Johanna, are professionally trained in this and related subjects. Some have less in the form of credentials but still manage to speak with intelligence and informatively. To the extent that any particular post uses terms that do not meet a standard of making an attempt to be objective and informative, go ahead and call it out. But a general denunciation of this thread is, as I said, more than a little obnoxious. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/347 "2012-09-02T22:25:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Oh, are you talking about the links to sound samples in Irishman’s link? It’s kind of set up weird, the link for the “American” /ɒ/ are actually giving the American pronunciation of “hot” and “rock,” which use /ɑ/, not /ɒ/. So those links are misleading. Well, actually, they’re wrong if you want to push it. But that’s how I say those words. (Associated with the wrong IPA symbol?) > [@SCAdian](#): > > I agree that the pronunciations of _hot_, _rock_ and _father_ at that site sound the same. However, while that site uses the same symbol for both _arm_ and _father_, the vowels as spoken there do not sound the same to me. You know, it does stand out to me that “arm” and “father” are not actually using the same vowel (quite independent of the r). ☹ And “call” and “four” are definitely different vowels, so I wonder why they are listed together. ☹ > [@](#): > > Agree with you on the first five, but for me _father_ and _calm_ are on opposite sides of the cot/caught line (_father_ and _cot_ vs _calm_ and _caught_). Thinking about it, if I were to make a distinction between cot and caught, it would be to make a dipthong of the second word, something like _cah-uht_. I suppose there is a subtle difference in _father_ and _calm_, not attributable to just the _l_. But it’s much less distinct than the difference between _father_ and _fat_. > [@Acsenray](#): > > To me > > /a/ and /ɑ/ = varieties of “ah” > /ɒ/ and /ɔ/ = varieties of “aw” And that was my point to **SCAdian**. The letter combo “ah” represents different sounds to different speakers, so map to different IPA symbols. > [@For You](#): > > The first word in that song is “Doe”. The word “do” is typically pronounced differently (rhymes with “dew”, IME). I knew this was going to be a problem. The first word in the song is “do”, as in “Do-Re-Mi”. > **[Do-Re-Mi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do-Re-Mi)** > > "Do-Re-Mi" is a show tune from the 1959 Rodgers and Hammerstein musical The Sound of Music. Each syllable of the musical solfège system appears in the song's lyrics, sung on the pitch it names. Rodgers was helped in its creation by long-time arranger Trude Rittmann who devised the extended vocal sequence in the song. > The tune finished at #88 in AFI's 100 Years...100 Songs survey of the top tunes in American cinema in 2004. > Within the story of The Sound of Music, it is used by the governess Mari... Perhaps I should have put “do” in italics or something. I do know that “do” is typically pronounced different than “doe”. For me, it is “do” = “dew”, and there is no “dyoo”. > [@](#): > > Bear in mind that that sentence is not a good example. The vowel sounds between “err” and “on” will receive the intrusive-r, so it will be “uhr”, not “uh”, or perhaps “uh ron”. :smack: > [@Ximenean](#): > > I’m sorry, that is not a very useful reference. All it is is a guide for translating IPA into the author’s idea of “American”, which as you have observed is not necessarily the same as other people’s pronunciation. The “Brit” column is almost worthless. The article even admits that “one symbol can mean two different phonemes”, which seems to go against the whole point of IPA. I would be happy to have a better IPA link. I use that one because it has sample words, American and British typical samples, and the sounds can be played directly from that page, without successive page loads. The Wiki pages require opening the reference chart, opening the page for the specific sound, then playing the sound off that page. And sometimes it’s actually loaded another page before the sound will play - I think if I rush the second click before the page fully loads, it treats it as a click to the “closeup”. Anyway, that’s tedious and annoying for cross referencing. > [@hibernicus](#): > > North American English doesn’t have a sound that is very close to the Italian [a] in pasta. Forced to choose between something like “poss-tuh” and something like “pess-tuh”, North American English speakers say “poss-tuh”. The think the standard alternate to “poss-tuh” is something like “pass-tuh”. That is what we are trying to avoid. But at least no one is saying “piss-tuh”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/348 "2012-09-02T22:40:54Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > But that’s how I say those words. (Associated with the wrong IPA symbol?) Yes, it’s transcribing them wrong. The pronunciations are correct, but some of them are not being associated with the correct symbols. > [@](#): > > “call” and “four” are definitely different vowels, so I wonder why they are listed together. ☹ Because, I believe in RP, they are the same vowel. > [@](#): > > And that was my point to **SCAdian**. The letter combo “ah” represents different sounds to different speakers, so map to different IPA symbols. Yes, exactly, which is why we should be using IPA! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/349 "2012-09-02T23:48:51Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > You know, it does stand out to me that “arm” and “father” are not actually using the same vowel (quite independent of the r). ☹ And “call” and “four” are definitely different vowels, so I wonder why they are listed together. ☹ In rhotic speech, even though the r is pronounced, it still does colour the sound of the vowel that precedes it, at least IME. When I say “arm”, the r tends to raise the vowel a little because my tongue is coming up to finish the syllable. So, in the end, it does not seem sensible to use an r-terminated syllable as a pronunciation reference, solely because of inconsistency in pronunciation. > [@](#): > > The think the standard alternate to “poss-tuh” is something like “pass-tuh”. That is what we are trying to avoid. But at least no one is saying “piss-tuh”. 😉 Sheesh, now this gets into territory that starts to make my head hurt. When you type “poss-tuh”, you are wandering into that weird cot/caught territory. In much of the American Midwest, the vowel in “cot” sounds like the IPA “a”, so “poss-tuh” in that accent seems to me much closer to what the British are talking about, but “pasta” is pronounced in most of America with more of a “ä” sound. How ever you slice it, at least we can understand each other, most of the time. Were it not for context and tone, we would be screwed. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/350 "2012-09-03T01:51:20Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > What dialect do you speak? [This sound](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Open_back_rounded_vowel.ogg) would be “ah” in your dialect, then? What would [this sound](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Open_front_unrounded_vowel.ogg) be? First is “aw” (caught, call, ball, thaw, &c, &c). Second is “ah” (cot, bother, shah, father, aha!, pa, bah!, &c, &c). ---
**Author:** ![JohnB\_Melb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@JohnB\_Melb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnB_Melb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/351 "2012-09-03T04:27:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And I think your suggestion is wrong. And more than a little obnoxious and high-handed. This thread, like many others, has gone through waves of being informative or uninformative, but overall it continues to offer insights into certain individuals’ perceptions. Indeed, as it has gone on, it has gotten generally _more_ informative, as now more contributors are at least trying to describe things with IPA symbols. > > Strangely enough, this statement of yours: > > … seem to suggest that you haven’t read this thread very closely at all, because in terms of objective description, it has taken a few steps backward where others have managed to take a few steps forward. > > When we have gotten to the point that we are describing pronunciations more accurately, for you to then start using uninformative terms along the lines of “well, it sounds like ‘inserting an R’ to me because the vowel is changing” is almost like the opposite of fighting ignorance. > … Ahh, just a reminder that some of those with rhotic accents accused us non-rhotics of an “intrusive R” when pronouncing something like “tuna oil”. I challenged the “intrusive R” accusation and said it was not deliberately inserted but was a side effect of a lack of hiatus transition between the vowels, and that it was merely “perceived” as an “R” by rhotic speakers. You complained, in an earlier post (#199) _“It doesn’t matter whether an intrusive R is perceived as being deliberate. All that matters is that it’s there.”_ But when Novelty Bobble says a similar thing _“That long drawing out of the word certainly sounds like an “r” to me. It corresponds to exactly my pronunciation of “part” “car” “hard” etc. So the only way I can describe it is by reference to the insertion of an r.”_ He is condemned for using “uninformative terms”! I also don’t believe Novelty Bobble was being at all “high handed” at all in his discussion of the course of this thread, he’s just pointed out the way it wanders and weaves through different parts of the issue, and repeats some. That’s why I find it strangely compelling ! Cheers ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/352 "2012-09-03T04:37:40Z")
> [@JohnB\_Melb](#): > > Ahh, just a reminder that some of those with rhotic accents accused us non-rhotics of an “intrusive R” when pronouncing something like “tuna oil”. > > I challenged the “intrusive R” accusation and said it was not deliberately inserted but was a side effect of a lack of hiatus transition between the vowels, and that it was merely “perceived” as an “R” by rhotic speakers. > > You complained, in an earlier post (#199) _“It doesn’t matter whether an intrusive R is perceived as being deliberate. All that matters is that it’s there.”_ > > But when Novelty Bobble says a similar thing _“That long drawing out of the word certainly sounds like an “r” to me. It corresponds to exactly my pronunciation of “part” “car” “hard” etc. So the only way I can describe it is by reference to the insertion of an r.”_ > He is condemned for using “uninformative terms”! Yes, because in one case, there _is_ an actual _R_ phone being inserted (“intrusive R” is the proper term for the phenomenon) and in one case there isn’t. It isn’t a matter of perception, but fact. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/353 "2012-09-03T05:00:10Z")
So how do the Brits pronounce “fought”? For instance, out of context, could one take the statement “I fought furiously” to mean that perhaps the speaker should consider reviewing their eating habits? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/354 "2012-09-03T06:48:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yes, because in one case, there _is_ an actual _R_ phone being inserted (“intrusive R” is the proper term for the phenomenon) and in one case there isn’t. It isn’t a matter of perception, but fact. Do you accept that I hear a very clear “r” sound in the US word “pasta”? And that the first syllable is the equivalent of the British English word “par”? Now it may not have a proper name but it is obviously there. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/355 "2012-09-03T07:10:40Z")
> [@For You](#): > > In rhotic speech, even though the r is pronounced, it still does colour the sound of the vowel that precedes it, at least IME. When I say “arm”, the r tends to raise the vowel a little because my tongue is coming up to finish the syllable. So, in the end, it does not seem sensible to use an r-terminated syllable as a pronunciation reference, solely because of inconsistency in pronunciation. Yes, I agree, unless we are explicitly talking how to pronounce r words, avoid them as examples for pronunciation guide. I see with “arm” a tendency for a slight dipthong - _ah-urm_. Similarly, I think we should avoid using words with l after the vowel, such as “palm”, for the same reason. L seems to function for some people as a vowel modifier rather than a consonant. > [@](#): > > Sheesh, now this gets into territory that starts to make my head hurt. When you type “poss-tuh”, you are wandering into that weird cot/caught territory. In much of the American Midwest, the vowel in “cot” sounds like the IPA “a”, so “poss-tuh” in that accent seems to me much closer to what the British are talking about, but “pasta” is pronounced in most of America with more of a “ä” sound. Okay, I just listened to the Wiki sounds for /a/, /ä/, /ɑ/, and /ɶ/. I gotta say, those first three sound a hell of a lot alike to me. The last one is more “uh” than “ah”, but the first three are so similar I’m not sure what is different. I mean, there’s a hint of pitch variation, but I would call them all the same vowel. Any of those three would be acceptable vowels for “p_a_sta”. I suppose, after several iterations, the first is more similar to how someone from Boston speaks (Boston), and that accent often gets immitated as “pæsta”. But it’s subtle. By the way, I hate that chart because I have no reference points to clue what symbol approximates the sound I wish to imitate. At least that other chart tries to give me words, even if it mismatches a few. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/356 "2012-09-03T07:11:23Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Do you accept that I hear a very clear “r” sound in the US word “pasta”? For the purposes of this discussion, I think the “r” sound is defined as a rhotic consonant. There is no rhotic consonant in the American pronunciation of “pasta,” nor the British pronunciation of “par.” This is not a matter of perspective. There is no consonant pronounced there. The spelling may indicate how the vowel is vocalized, but the “r” is not pronounced in a way that the “r” in words like “radio” and “rat” are. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/357 "2012-09-03T07:16:57Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Do you accept that I hear a very clear “r” sound in the US word “pasta”? You hear one of these? > **[Voiced retroflex approximant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_approximant)** > > The voiced retroflex approximant is a type of consonant used in some languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents this sound is ⟨ɻ⟩, and the equivalent X-SAMPA symbol is r\\\`. The IPA symbol is a turned lowercase letter r with a rightward hook protruding from the lower right of the letter. > The velar bunched approximant found in some varieties of Dutch and American English sounds similar to the retroflex approximant but it has a very different articulation. > Feature... > [@](#): > > And that the first syllable is the equivalent of the British English word “par”? > Now it may not have a proper name but it is obviously there. Only for BE non-rhotics, which means there’s not really an “r” there. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/358 "2012-09-03T07:38:16Z")
I should say, for non-rhotics, the “r” seems to function the way the silent “e” on the end of words functions: it indicates how the prior vowel is pronounced, but isn’t itself pronounced. There are very few dialects that put a rhotic “r” in “pasta”. I don’t know of any specifically, but I suspect a dialect that says “warshes” might. > [@For You](#): > > So how do the Brits pronounce “fought”? For instance, out of context, could one take the statement “I fought furiously” to mean that perhaps the speaker should consider reviewing their eating habits? I suspect “fought” is pronounced _f\*\*awt_ /fɒt/, while “fart” is pronounced \*faht \*/fɑt/. And I just found two useful wiki pages shows word guide [Help:IPA/English - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English) has sound files embedded [IPA vowel chart with audio - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/359 "2012-09-03T08:08:38Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > For the purposes of this discussion, I think the “r” sound is defined as a rhotic consonant. There is no rhotic consonant in the American pronunciation of “pasta,” nor the British pronunciation of “par.” This is not a matter of perspective. There is no consonant pronounced there. The spelling may indicate how the vowel is vocalized, but the “r” is not pronounced in a way that the “r” in words like “radio” and “rat” are. I’m not suggesting it is the only “r” sound. Only that it is one variant of it. It sounds to me like “par” or “are” not sure how much more of an “r” sound it needs to be. Anyhow. That is not my problem with threads like this. Others say that they can be informative but I’m not convinced. We seem to go round in circles precisely because there is an attempt to use exact definitions and sweeping generalisations that simply don’t fit. Now it is interesting to discuss these subjects, I love language and accents/dialects etc. But a message board thread just doesn’t suit these discussions at all. Better to do it in a pub where I can demonstrate exactly the sound I mean. IPA is an approximation but it can’t capture the subtleties of speech. It is rather like trying to use standard english to discuss how food tastes or what a painting looks like or how music sounds or how a play is performed. You can cover some basics, talk about nuts and bolts and get a general point across but the only real way to discuss it in full is to experience it first hand. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/360 "2012-09-03T08:38:09Z")
> [@For You](#): > > So how do the Brits pronounce “fought”? For instance, out of context, could one take the statement “I fought furiously” to mean that perhaps the speaker should consider reviewing their eating habits? [Fought](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fought?showCookiePolicy=true) [Fart](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fart?showCookiePolicy=true) I don’t think you could confuse the two, at least not if you heard both. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=19)