# British add an "r" sound **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 13, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223 "2011-02-13T17:41:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/361 "2012-09-03T10:05:11Z")
Novelty Bobble has a point that IPA isn’t perfect. It is an attempt to render in discrete categories (each category represented by a symbol) what is a fluid and complex continuum of many acoustic and biophysical factors. Just read a few pages of the late Peter Ladefoged’s (sp?) _Sounds of the World’s Languages_ to see how messy reality is, and how much variation there is among each individual, and even within each individual from moment to moment. But, I think NB exaggerates when he states that Internet fora are useless for discussing pronunciation, and that IPA isn’t generally a useful tool for this. Didn’t I just state a few posts ago that I learned something specific from this thread, based on a few posts among myself, Hibernicus, and Acsenray, even though we never met up in a pub? (Though I’d love to! Shall we say the King’s Arms in Galway, next Friday at 11 PM? ;)) And as for “r”…no one is disputing your perception of an “r” phoneme includes situations where the acoustic parameters of a rhotic consonant simply are absent, and there’s nothing wring with that. This arises from your experience of seeing spelled "r"s in similar acoustic situations, in your dialect of English. No biggie. But surely my suggestion of saving the rhotic claim for “pirate joke” situations is a helpful one? Or maybe you’re not familiar with the pirate jokes I’m talking about. Okay…how about a child imitating the roar of a noisy motorcycle being started? ---
**Author:** ![JohnB\_Melb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@JohnB\_Melb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnB_Melb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/362 "2012-09-03T11:18:35Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yes, because in one case, there _is_ an actual _R_ phone being inserted (“intrusive R” is the proper term for the phenomenon) and in one case there isn’t. It isn’t a matter of perception, but fact. The “intrusive R” you perceive in “Tuna Oil” is not an intentional addition, neither is the “R” which Novelty Bobble perceives in some American (and Australian) pronunciations of “Pahsta” I fail to see the objectivity of your apparent argument that when you perceive something, it is there, when Novelty Bobble does, he is mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/363 "2012-09-03T12:18:46Z")
> [@JohnB\_Melb](#): > > The “intrusive R” you perceive in “Tuna Oil” is not an intentional addition, neither is the “R” which Novelty Bobble perceives in some American (and Australian) pronunciations of “Pahsta” > > I fail to see the objectivity of your apparent argument that when you perceive something, it is there, when Novelty Bobble does, he is mistaken. “Intentionality” is important for some aspects of language, including some ways of considering pronunciation, but not for what we’re talking about here right now. The “intrusive r” that has been mentioned is not a perceptual thing. It’s a real sound. (And it’s rare – you might not have ever come across it.) The “r” that N B thinks he hears sometimes is, likewise, actually the absence of a real sound. I’m not sure why this is difficult to understand. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/364 "2012-09-03T12:23:01Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > So with the father-bother issue – > > 1. Those without merger say /fɑːðɚ/ and /bɒðɚ/ > > 2. Those with merger say /fɑːðɚ/ and /bɑːðɚ/ > > 3. I say /fäðɚ/ and either /bɑːðɚ/ or /bɒðɚ/ > > I suppose in Irish speech, they’re even more separated, as /faðɚ/ and /bɒðɚ/ It’s a good question, but it’s really hard to answer because there is so much variation between different Irish accents. In an earlier post I mentioned the way “father” is pronounced in my mother’s native west of Ireland accent. Speaking for my own accent, I will hazard: /fɑːðəɹ/ and /bɒðəɹ/. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/365 "2012-09-03T12:26:36Z")
> [@JohnB\_Melb](#): > > The “intrusive R” you perceive in “Tuna Oil” is not an intentional addition, neither is the “R” which Novelty Bobble perceives in some American (and Australian) pronunciations of “Pahsta” > > I fail to see the objectivity of your apparent argument that when you perceive something, it is there, when Novelty Bobble does, he is mistaken. ETA: [quote=“JohnB\_Melb, post:362, topic:571223”] Spend a few minutes looking at spectrograms, especially as “a unifying property of rhotics might be found in the acoustic domain, given the articulatory variation in both place and manner of different types of rhotics” (Ladefoged and Maddieson 1996, p. 244). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/366 "2012-09-03T12:27:11Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Do you accept that I hear a very clear “r” sound in the US word “pasta”? And that the first syllable is the equivalent of the British English word “par”? Now it may not have a proper name but it is obviously there. This is your answer: > [@pulykamell](#): > > For the purposes of this discussion, I think the “r” sound is defined as a rhotic consonant. There is no rhotic consonant in the American pronunciation of “pasta,” nor the British pronunciation of “par.” This is not a matter of perspective. There is no consonant pronounced there. The spelling may indicate how the vowel is vocalized, but the “r” is not pronounced in a way that the “r” in words like “radio” and “rat” are. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Anyhow. That is not my problem with threads like this. Others say that they can be informative but I’m not convinced. Pronunciation, strangely enough, is studied by actual linguists and scholars, so there is some basis for having objective conversations about it. > [@](#): > > Better to do it in a pub where I can demonstrate exactly the sound I mean. And strangely enough you have the option of going to a pub rather than participating in this thread. > [@JohnB\_Melb](#): > > The “intrusive R” you perceive in “Tuna Oil” is not an intentional addition I don’t know why you keep bringing up intent. It doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/367 "2012-09-03T12:34:58Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > I’m not sure why this is difficult to understand. I think that this explanation… > [@](#): > > The “r” that N B thinks he hears sometimes is, likewise, actually the absence of a real sound. …Is why it is hard to understand. You are suggesting that what I hear is an absence of a sound. Not sure how that works seeing as err…I have heard it, therefore it is a real sound. If I say the standard phonic “a” it is not the same as the first “a” in the US “pasta”. So it is different and a “real” sound. something is added not removed. That added bit is what I hear as an “r” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/368 "2012-09-03T12:47:31Z")
True, you are classifying as an “r” a real thing, but that thing is known as “non-rhotic”, because of a combination of the intention of the speaker (who perceives no “r”) and its acoustic properties (it is objectively different from the rhotic “r” – check out some spectrograms). I am not an expert on this, but the objective, acoustic description of this thing you’re noticing is probably some temporal lengthening of the syllable, just as you mentioned it might be, which you are used to encountering in combination with the quality of the vowel (lowness, roundedness, etc.) in places where there is an orthographic (written) “r”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/369 "2012-09-03T12:49:07Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I have heard it, therefore it is a real sound. If I say the standard phonic “a” it is not the same as the first “a” in the US “pasta”. So it is different and a “real” sound. something is added not removed. That added bit is what I hear as an “r” In terms of actual sound, nothing has been “added.” One vowel has simply been changed to another. An “R sound” in linguistic terms is a consonant. When you change one vowel to another vowel, there is no added consonant. So if you are going to discuss pronunciation in neutral terms, you have to give up the concept that an “R sound” has been added there. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/370 "2012-09-03T12:53:32Z")
Acsenray said the same thing I did, using different words. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/371 "2012-09-03T14:20:55Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Acsenray said the same thing I did, using different words. Perhaps, but I couldn’t understand him because he talks funny 🙂 Anyhow. I think we’ve done this sideline to death so I shall take Acsenray’s advice and bow out. I’m not adding to the discussion in any meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/372 "2012-09-03T14:22:56Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > To most Americans, it just sounds _wrong_. > > Imagine if you heard a dialect where someone inserted an “L” sound between a word that ended in a vowel, and another beginning with a vowel. So instead of saying “Asia and India,” they said “Asial and India.” You’d say “WTF’s up with that? You put an ‘L’ sound in there where it didn’t belong!” and the person said “No, I didn’t!” That’s what this conversation is like to an American. So you’ve been to [Bristol](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol#Dialect) then? Or at least in the areal… ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/373 "2012-09-03T18:19:56Z")
But it just occurs to me that the intrusive-r only appears trailing a “broad” vowel sound. For instance, “Candy \_ in the jar” or “Go play \_ over there” would not separate the vowels with a ghost consonant. Only words that end in a, o or u type vowels get the intrusive-r. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/374 "2012-09-03T19:53:40Z")
Pirate’s favorite vegetable? (Or has that been mentioned upthread?) ---
**Author:** ![JohnB\_Melb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@JohnB\_Melb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnB_Melb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/375 "2012-09-03T22:51:42Z")
> [@For You](#): > > So how do the Brits pronounce “fought”? For instance, out of context, could one take the statement “I fought furiously” to mean that perhaps the speaker should consider reviewing their eating habits? I am pretty sure that the British pronunciation of “fought” would not be confused with the term used for the after effects of their enthusiasm for baked beans. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/376 "2012-09-03T23:01:43Z")
> [@For You](#): > > But it just occurs to me that the intrusive-r only appears trailing a “broad” vowel sound. For instance, “Candy \_ in the jar” or “Go play \_ over there” would not separate the vowels with a ghost consonant. Only words that end in a, o or u type vowels get the intrusive-r. Basically, intrusive r only occurs after vowels which COULD have been the remnants of a syllable which would end for rhotic speakers with /r/. That’s not the case for the vowels ending “candy” (/i/) or “play” (/eI/), because, as far as these accents are concerned, there’s no such thing as a word ending directly in /ir/ or /eIr/. The non-rhotic pronunciations of “ear” and “air”, for example, end in schwas (/I@/ and /E@/), so there’s no chance that non-rhotic pronunciations of the syllables ending “candy” or “play” are also non-rhotic pronunciations of syllables ending in /r/. ---
**Author:** ![JohnB\_Melb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@JohnB\_Melb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnB_Melb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/377 "2012-09-03T23:23:53Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > “Intentionality” is important for some aspects of language, including some ways of considering pronunciation, but not for what we’re talking about here right now. The “intrusive r” that has been mentioned is not a perceptual thing. It’s a real sound. (And it’s rare – you might not have ever come across it.) The “r” that N B thinks he hears sometimes is, likewise, actually the absence of a real sound. I’m not sure why this is difficult to understand. I understand what the “intrusive R” means, I actually pronounce it myself sometimes. My point is that it’s a result of the tongue re-positioning for the vowel sounds while voicing is maintained, not an explicit, deliberate “R” being inserted. Novelty Bubble also perceives an “R” sound in the way some speakers (including me) pronounce “pahsta” due to the way Novelty Bubble, and those who have similar accents, pronounce words like “part” , “farm” , versus their pronunciation of pasta. I don’t agree with Novelty Bubble’s pronunciation of “Pasta”, I don’t think that there’s an “R” in how I pronounce “pasta”, but Novelty Bubble’s perception of it is every bit as valid as that of Ascenray’s. Ascenray challenges this, leaving the impression that his perceptions are valid, and others perceptions are not. As for determining which pronunciations are correct, I maintain all variations have their legitimacy. For those who are really pedantic, then I would look at the name of the language for a clue as to where one might source pronunciation guidelines. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/378 "2012-09-03T23:40:03Z")
> [@](#): > > As for determining which pronunciations are correct, I maintain all variations have their legitimacy. > > For those who are really pedantic, then I would look at the name of the language for a clue as to where one might source pronunciation guidelines. I’ll call a few of my Angle friends living along the German-Danish border – thanks! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/379 "2012-09-03T23:48:47Z")
My more serious answer to you, JohnB, is that the acoustic signal of which you speak will tend to be construed by listeners whose variety of English is more rhotic as a misplaced phoneme, but a phoneme nonetheless, but construed by listeners whose variety of English is less rhotic as a non-phonemic sound (phone) whose presence is necessary in that situation for the speaker’s (though not necessarily for the listener’s) variety of English. No big deal. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223/380 "2012-09-04T00:13:11Z")
> [@JohnB\_Melb](#): > > I understand what the “intrusive R” means, I actually pronounce it myself sometimes. > My point is that it’s a result of the tongue re-positioning for the vowel sounds while voicing is maintained, not an explicit, deliberate “R” being inserted. Nobody is arguing that it is explicit or deliberate. It’s just there. My accent has similar quirks. I don’t explicitly or deliberately pronounce “str” as “shtr,” but, when people point it out, yeah, that is what I do. I say “SHTREET” for “street.” To me, it’s weird to try to pronounce that as a pure “str” cluster, and “shtr” sounds much easier and more natural to me. I don’t notice that I do it. I certainly don’t do it on purpose. And yet it’s there. It’s not a matter of perception or relativism or prescriptivism or anything like that. It is unambiguously there, even though I don’t notice it or make a conscious effort to produce it. I don’t understand how this is a matter of perception. The sound is there. Intent has nothing to do with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-add-an-r-sound/571223.md?page=20)