# British/American allyship **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 13, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920 "2012-11-13T20:55:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![whc.03grady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@whc.03grady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whc.03grady)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/1 "2012-11-13T20:55:57Z")
By my reckoning, the USA’s greatest (by which I mean something like staunchest, most loyal, most reliable; something like that) ally is probably the UK. Of course, the UK–or what the UK was in 1776–is the country we violently extracted ourselves from. How long after the American Revolution did the USA and Britain become such good friends? Obviously after the War of 1812, and American Civil War, I suppose. Was it WWI? ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/2 "2012-11-13T21:10:04Z")
As late as 1895 Britain and America clashed over the Venezuelan Crisis but there was never any serious danger that the two would fight, except in the minds of one or two newspapers. The Oregon border crisis of 1844 was another point where the two could have clashed, although the prospect of simultaneous war with Mexico made engineering a crisis inadvisable. Britain (and France) stayed out of the Civil War ultimately because they had more to gain by staying out than coming in, and the Emancipation Proclamation made British intervention domestically impossible. Also dislike of Washington did not automatically translate into enthusiasm for Richmond. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/3 "2012-11-13T21:14:46Z")
> [@whc.03grady](#): > > allyship In case you weren’t purposely neologizing, it’s ‘alliance.’ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![whc.03grady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@whc.03grady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whc.03grady)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/4 "2012-11-13T22:03:17Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > In case you weren’t purposely neologizing, it’s ‘alliance.’ 🙂 I was looking for something less formal than “alliance”. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/5 "2012-11-13T22:16:17Z")
> [@whc.03grady](#): > > I was looking for something less formal than “alliance”. “BFF”? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/6 "2012-11-13T23:19:06Z")
Probably the Treaty of Washington (1871). The border between Canada and the United States was finalized (more or less), the UK paid reparations for allowing Confederate warships to be built in places like Liverpool and I’m sure there were some other issues resolved as well. I suppose at this point the UK and US were not staunch allies and supporters of one another but this is probably the start. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/7 "2012-11-14T00:25:40Z")
[QUOTE=Odesio;15694799 the UK paid reparations for allowing Confederate warships to be built in places like Liverpool [/QUOTE] Why would they pay reparations for that? If they weren’t busy fighting all of Europe as they were in 1776 and 1812, I’m sure they could kick USA ass. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/8 "2012-11-14T00:36:17Z")
> [@whc.03grady](#): > > I was looking for something less formal than “alliance”. “Dalliance”? ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/9 "2012-11-14T01:15:30Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Why would they pay reparations for that? > If they weren’t busy fighting all of Europe as they were in 1776 and 1812, I’m sure they could kick USA ass. According to census figures, in 1800, the American population was about 5.3 million vs. 16.3 million for the UK, or 32.5%. In 1870, the figures were 38.6 million vs. 31.6 million, or 122%. In addition, that was only a few years after the Civil War, so we had a few million battle-hardened veterans able to be called up. In other words, British forces would have had a 3,000-mile long supply chain and would have been invading a country that had a significantly bigger population. There would have been ass-kicking, all right, but in the other direction. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/10 "2012-11-14T01:31:24Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Probably the Treaty of Washington (1871). > … > I’m sure there were some other issues resolved as well. There was also the matter of compensation to Britain for allowing US fishers to fish in British North American waters. The treaty set up a bilateral commission to resolve the issue, which was of considerable interest to Canada and Newfoundland. The Halifax Fisheries Commission awarded the British $5,500,000, in gold, which the US dutifully paid. See: > **[Halifax Fisheries Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Fisheries_Commission)** > > The Halifax Fisheries Commission was a joint international tribunal created by the United Kingdom and the United States in 1877 under Articles 22 and 23 of the Treaty of Washington (1871). The purpose of the Commission was to determine the amount of compensation, if any, to be paid by the United States to the United Kingdom under Article 18 of the Treaty in return for fishing privileges for Americans in the Atlantic waters off Canada and Newfoundland. > The Commission was composed of three member... ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/11 "2012-11-14T01:34:08Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > In other words, British forces would have had a 3,000-mile long supply chain and would have been invading a country that had a significantly bigger population. There would have been ass-kicking, all right, but in the other direction. All they had to do was laugh at the American diplomats. 🙂 No need for a war. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/12 "2012-11-14T01:35:34Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > There was also the matter of compensation to Britain for allowing US fishers to fish in British North American waters. The treaty set up a bilateral commission to resolve the issue, which was of considerable interest to Canada and Newfoundland. The Halifax Fisheries Commission awarded the British $5,500,000, in gold, which the US dutifully paid. > > See: > > [Halifax Fisheries Commission - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Fisheries_Commission) Thanks, Northern Piper. I responded to the testosterone poisoned post before reading yours. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/13 "2012-11-14T01:43:03Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > According to census figures, in 1800, the American population was about 5.3 million vs. 16.3 million for the UK, or 32.5%. > > In 1870, the figures were 38.6 million vs. 31.6 million, or 122%. > > In addition, that was only a few years after the Civil War, so we had a few million battle-hardened veterans able to be called up. > > In other words, British forces would have had a 3,000-mile long supply chain and would have been invading a country that had a significantly bigger population. There would have been ass-kicking, all right, but in the other direction. Note, too, that during the Civil War, the Union had the largest army in the world – and could easily have mobilized more to defend against a UK attack. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/14 "2012-11-14T01:54:03Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Note, too, that during the Civil War, the Union had the largest army in the world – and could easily have mobilized more to defend against a UK attack. Who says the UK would attack? Just laugh at the Americans and let them try and travel 3,000 miles. Besides, they got 5 mill! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/15 "2012-11-14T01:55:02Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > In other words, British forces would have had a 3,000-mile long supply chain and would have been invading a country that had a significantly bigger population. There would have been ass-kicking, all right, but in the other direction. Kind of like Balin, going back to Moria to mine mithril when the Balrog was still there, and it had had a good long time to gather a whole mess of orcs. That didn’t end well, either. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/16 "2012-11-14T02:41:39Z")
“And I would have done it, except for those rotten orcs!” ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/17 "2012-11-14T06:08:45Z")
> [@whc.03grady](#): > > By my reckoning, the USA’s greatest (by which I mean something like staunchest, most loyal, most reliable; something like that) ally is probably the UK. Of course, the UK–or what the UK was in 1776–is the country we violently extracted ourselves from. Wouldn’t France be more likely our best ally? We’ve fought 2 wars with the UK (1776 & 1812), but never one with France\*. In fact, the French were our ally in our evolutionary war with the UK. And about half our country is on land we bought from France at a bargain price. \*There was the French and Indian war, but that was the British colonies fighting France, not the USA. And that was longer ago than both our wars with Britain. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/18 "2012-11-14T12:57:06Z")
As early as the 1820s Britain and America were working together. The Monroe Doctrine was proposed by a Briton (Canning) and enforced by the UK’s Royal Navy as the Americans didn’t have a credible navy of their own, and it was considered in Britain’s best interests to keep the seas open for British merchants (and with it keep the Spanish at bay in the Southern Hemisphere) as part of the Pax Britannica. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/19 "2012-11-14T13:47:12Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Wouldn’t France be more likely our best ally? > > We’ve fought 2 wars with the UK (1776 & 1812), but never one with France\*. In fact, the French were our ally in our evolutionary war with the UK. And about half our country is on land we bought from France at a bargain price. > > \*There was the French and Indian war, but that was the British colonies fighting France, not the USA. And that was longer ago than both our wars with Britain. Are you talking historically or presently? I’ve always assumed that the strong cultural and language ties make the US and UK more natural allies, regardless of long-past conflicts. ---
**Author:** ![whc.03grady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@whc.03grady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whc.03grady)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920/20 "2012-11-14T14:06:08Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Wouldn’t France be more likely our best ally? > > We’ve fought 2 wars with the UK (1776 & 1812), but never one with France\*. In fact, the French were our ally in our evolutionary war with the UK. And about half our country is on land we bought from France at a bargain price. > > \*There was the French and Indian war, but that was the British colonies fighting France, not the USA. And that was longer ago than both our wars with Britain. Hardly. Not that I’m some “freedom fries” moron or anything, but I have the sense that France would sell the US (or any of its allies) out at the drop of a hat if it served them even marginally. I’m thinking of a country that currently seems to stand with the US, whether the US is right or wrong. The UK seems to fit the bill best in that regard. Anyway, I found a wikipedia article that’s helpful on the topic: > **[Great Rapprochement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Rapprochement)** > > The Great Rapprochement was the convergence of diplomatic, political, military, and economic objectives of the United States and the Great Britain from 1895 to 1915, the two decades before American entry into World War I as an ally against Germany. In the Venezuelan crisis of 1895 President Grover Cleveland, a Democrat, escalated a boundary dispute in South America into an angry confrontation with Britain. Relations were calmed under President William McKinley (1897-1901). Theodore Roosevelt, t... Basically we got friendlier after border issues were settled, then moreso with the Spanish-American War, then WW1, and so on. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-american-allyship/640920.md?page=2)