# British Bad Guys **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2000, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190 "2000-08-29T15:09:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/1 "2000-08-29T15:09:18Z")
OK, I’m behind. The wife and I just got out last night to see _The Patriot_, and I have a question. **WARNING** - The thread will probably spoil the movie - **WARNING** OK - Here’s my question: From the perspective of plot, it makes a lot of sense that Colonel Tavington is such a schmuck. I mean, Benjamin Martin needed a motivation to prod him into joining the battle against the British, and Tavington’s putzery was just the prod Martin’s character required. But, from the perspective of history, how accurate is this portrayal? It seems to me that the manner of behavior exhibited by General Cornwallis and his other officers is more in line with what I learned about in History class: the Gentleman Soldier. When my mother saw this flick, her first comment was, “Boy! They sure made the British look _bad_.” After seeing the picture, I concur. So, what’s the Straight Dope here, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/2 "2000-08-29T15:29:12Z")
The Tavington character was based upon [Banastre Tarleton](http://www.shelby.net/jr/kmnmp/tarlton.htm). Read the bio, and judge for yourself the accuracy of the movie portrayal. While Tarleton was ruthless, I don’t believe he was as one-dimensionally evil as portrayed on film. More on Tarleton [here.](http://www.britishempire.co.uk/biography/tarletonbanastre.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/3 "2000-08-29T15:30:22Z")
Oops. Here’s that second link on [Tarleton.](http://www.britishempire.co.uk/biography/tarletonbanastre.htm) ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/4 "2000-08-29T15:45:13Z")
**spoke-** : Facinating reading. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/5 "2000-08-29T15:47:17Z")
Here’s another [link](http://www.charlotte.com/justgo/patriot/docs/patriot0701.htm) addressing the historical accuracy of the movie. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/6 "2000-08-29T15:53:01Z")
I’ve got to believe that Gibson and company were spurred on to do this movie by memories of watching Disney’s **The Swamp Fox** , “only this time, we get to do it with real blod and guts, plus sex!” ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/7 "2000-08-29T17:30:51Z")
A historical drama by the same people who brought you _Independance Day_ and _Godzilla._ I’m willing to guess that it’s exagerated. Even the best historical dramas tend to demonize the designated “bad guys.” I wouldn’t trust these jokers to get the ending right. 🙂 What’s next, a historical drama by Luc Bessner? Nah, even holywood wouldn’t be that stupid . . . – “We can’t do nothing without a sword. That’s why they call us kenshi.” ---
**Author:** ![Surgoshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Surgoshan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surgoshan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/8 "2000-08-29T23:57:00Z")
I suppose it’d be possible to do a move that concentrated on fact and failed to pit it as ‘bad guys v. good guys’. But it would be a film. Not a movie. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2000, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/9 "2000-08-31T01:54:10Z")
Remember, this was the same Mel Gibson who gave us _Braveheart_, in which King Edward the First (“King Longshanks”) was portrayed as a brutal pagan baby-sacrificing Nazi communist devil-worshipper who instituted the _jus primae noctis_. ---
**Author:** ![aseymayo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@aseymayo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aseymayo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2000, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/10 "2000-08-31T02:20:14Z")
**tomndebb** , when _The Patriot_ came out, I read that Gibson’s character was a composite of several different Colonials - including Francis Marion. Too bad they didn’t give Leslie Nielsen a cameo role. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2000, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/11 "2000-08-31T02:30:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Remember, this was the same Mel Gibson who gave us _Braveheart_, in which King Edward the First (“King Longshanks”) was portrayed as a brutal pagan baby-sacrificing Nazi communist devil-worshipper who instituted the _jus primae noctis_. \*\* **tracer** : Interesting hijack to my own thread: My sister-in-law’s family is mixed - Scottish and English. You know that whole bit at the end where Robert the Bruce turns traitor? Those are her direct ancestors (Bruce and Wallace). She sat in the theater, embarassed, because her family’s sordid history, about which they’ve been fighting for hundreds of years, was played out on the screen in front of her. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2000, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/12 "2000-08-31T02:42:28Z")
Hijack continued: well my Fiance is very scots, but I am of mixed ancestry, including welsh, and I could just see my ancestors, the Davies (who fought as Longbowmen) saying “Faith, Blaith, they are showing their bums to us! - Yep, and I’m going to shoot one right in the ass!”. 😃 That being said, Tarleton was a complete bastard. ---
**Author:** ![DRY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@DRY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DRY)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2000, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/13 "2000-08-31T05:11:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sdimbert \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > > \*\*Remember, this was the same Mel Gibson who gave us _Braveheart_, in which King Edward the First (“King Longshanks”) was portrayed as a brutal pagan baby-sacrificing Nazi communist devil-worshipper who instituted the _jus primae noctis_. \*\* > > **tracer** : > > Interesting hijack to my own thread: My sister-in-law’s family is mixed - Scottish and English. You know that whole bit at the end where Robert the Bruce turns traitor? Those are her direct ancestors (Bruce and Wallace). > > She sat in the theater, embarassed, because her family’s sordid history, about which they’ve been fighting for hundreds of years, was played out on the screen in front of her. > > Heh. \*\* Forgive the continued hijack, but I HAVE to respond to this. I’ve studied English history, and, unless I’m grossly mistaken there is NO evidence that Bruce ever betrayed Wallace. I believe they did meet, but weren’t close allies. IIRC, Wallace backed Bruce’s rival for the throne of Scotland, the Baliol clan (this is actually addressed very briefly in the movie, in the scene where the Scottish nobles are feuding right before Wallace announces his plan to invade England). If I’m not mistaken, Wallace was betrayed by a man named “Monteith” or some such. Bruce had NOTHING to do with it. (I am also not sure that Bruce fought on the English side at the battle of Falkirk.) It IS true that Bruce was a time server who switched alliances between the English and the Scots. It’s also true that King Edward I WAS known as Longshanks. There are hints that his son was homosexual or bisexual. That’s also TRUE. HOWEVER, there is NO reason to believe that Edward II’s queen Isabeau and William Wallace ever met (She might not have come to England until after he was already dead). Edward I did NOT die at the same time as Wallace–he outlived him for several years (he died marching to put down an insurrection led by Robert the Bruce). At the end of the movie, the future queen tells Longshanks that his son shall not sit long on the throne. In real life, he reigned for 20 years. Finally, the battle that Wallace won was called “The Battle at Sterling Bridge”. There was no calvalry charge, nor innovative use of spears. Instead, Wallace waited for exactly the right moment to ambush the English (of course, this makes for far less drama). **Braveheart** was an excellent and entertaining movie. But as far as realistically depicting history goes, it’s right up there with **1941**. ---
**Author:** ![mipsman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mipsman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mipsman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2000, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/14 "2000-08-31T15:47:41Z")
Simon de Montfort should have wasted Edward I when he had the chance. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2000, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/15 "2000-08-31T22:04:03Z")
Yeah, but de Montfort just had too much fun wreaking havoc in the south of France to have the motivation for it. ---
**Author:** ![mipsman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mipsman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mipsman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2000, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/16 "2000-08-31T23:53:40Z")
I am talking about Simon de Montfort, Junior, not his dad who put down the Albigensians. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2000, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-bad-guys/31190/17 "2000-09-02T01:19:21Z")
Whoops, another example of the dangers of late-night posting. Sorry. BTW, _The Patriot_ went down over here in the UK like a lead balloon. Amazingly, enough people watched it during its first week of release to put it in the top 10 movies. **What were they thinking?**