# British Colonel under investigation for alleged war crimes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538 "2003-05-21T13:00:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/1 "2003-05-21T13:00:06Z")
A lot of you will be aware of Colonel Tim Collins. He gave a very stirring speech to his troops. > [@](#): > > excepts from speech > > We go to liberate not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them… > > If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer … > > You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest, for your deeds will follow you down through history. … > > Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there … > > Don’t treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children in years to come will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you Well according to many [news outlets](http://news.google.com/news?q=cluster:news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3045821.stm) he may be in a bit of trouble. This [Times](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-687512,00.html) article says > [@](#): > > It is also believed to be looking into allegations that he pistol-whipped a civic leader, fired at the ground near civilians and shot the tyres of vehicles which posed no risk to coalition forces. So early days and the man himself is denying all charges. Witch hunt or not this story seems to have legs. It will run and run and stir up crap from both sides no doubt. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/2 "2003-05-21T13:30:30Z")
In a wartime situation, prosecuting an officer on the last two charges would seem to be a witch-hunt. Concerning pistol-whipping a civic leader, more details would have to be made available before I offer an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![mooka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@mooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mooka)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/3 "2003-05-21T17:24:54Z")
I don’t see that there is much debate here. If he did actually kick POWs and pistol whip a civic leader then of course he should be prosecuted for breaking the Geneva Convention. I wouldn’t think firing at the ground near civilians would justify prosecution though. If he didn’t do any of these things then he shouldn’t. We really need more facts about this to debate anything, and it doesn’t look like the MoD is going to release any information for now. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/4 "2003-05-21T17:37:35Z")
i’m all for an objective war crimes investigation. It will mildly satiate cynics who want the coalition to be portrayed as war criminals by showing that coaltion troops & officers will be held accountable for legitimate violations. Just as long as the investigation is objective. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/5 "2003-05-22T10:31:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mooka \* > We really need more facts about this to debate anything, and it doesn’t look like the MoD is going to release any information for now. Yep. I was going to put this is MPSIMS but thought that it had a hijack potential of either a PIT/GD thread so put it here. ---
**Author:** ![mooka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@mooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mooka)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/6 "2003-05-22T10:58:44Z")
yojimbo: If this was an American Colonel being investigated then i’m sure it would have generated a heated argument! According to [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3045821.stm) story though it is an American officer who is making the allegations. It sounds unlikely that someone who would make the speech he did would then risk his reputation by breaking the rules of war. But then why would an American officer lie to smear an allied British officer? I guess we’ll just have to wait and see… ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/7 "2003-05-22T23:36:04Z")
reading the papers today the insinuation was that it was an american who got annoyed at Tim Collins for chewing him out. What is interesting is that the UK military is backing off supporting Collins, alledgely because he is not from the right sort of ba ckgound and being too outspoken (being from Northerm Irish descent) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/8 "2003-05-23T05:53:53Z")
Latest background: > **[Colonel Collins: new inquiry into how he ran regiment](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/may/23/iraq.military)** > > Fresh claims prompt MoD to launch second investigation. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/9 "2003-05-23T16:23:19Z")
If it’s true, he should be roasted for it. If it’s not true, he should be acquitted. No debate really… Loved his speech though. ---
**Author:** ![johncole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@johncole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johncole)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/10 "2003-05-25T11:09:48Z")
It goes without saying that all alleged breaches of the Geneva Convention should be investigated and appropriate action taken. However. from **Pjen** ’s link > [@](#): > > Earlier this month, the Northern Ireland-born officer gave an interview to the News of the World, which reported Col Collins’ “legendary exploits”. It described how he told a looter to stop stealing vital equipment. The man carried on, so the colonel took out his sidearm, shot out all four of the man’s lorry tyres and bellowed: “What part of ‘No’ don’t you understand?” When some elements of the Press and Public are howling for looters to be shot on sight, this seems (to me) to be a more proportionate response. As to the motives of Major Re Biastre, [this link](http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_784645.html) _may_ provide a clue. > [@](#): > > Maj De Biastre was involved in a clash with Col Collins after he (De Biastre) handed out sweets to Iraqi children **in defiance of orders**. > > Col Collins feared that Maj Biastre’s actions would cause chaos and **endanger the children**. Of course I don’t know what actually happened (I wasn’t there) and consequently I don’t know if Lt. Col. Collins’ fears were justified or reasonable. However, as much as I dislike the common practise of attacking the messenger rather than the message (a mainstay of the UK government’s response to criticiism), I am wondering what action will be taken (or has been taken) in respect of Major De Biastre’s wilful disobedience of a lawful order from a superior officer. AFAIK wilful disobedience may be defended if the order is not lawful, but it may not be defended if the junior merely dislikes or resents the command. Perhaps somebody who knows QR or the US equivalent can enlighten us. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/11 "2003-05-25T14:09:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by johncole \* > \*\*However, as much as I dislike the common practise of attacking the messenger rather than the message (a mainstay of the UK government’s response to criticiism), I am wondering what action will be taken (or has been taken) in respect of Major De Biastre’s wilful disobedience of a lawful order from a superior officer. > > AFAIK wilful disobedience may be defended if the order is not lawful, but it may not be defended if the junior merely dislikes or resents the command. Perhaps somebody who knows QR or the US equivalent can enlighten us. \*\* According to today’s Sunday Times, De Biastre already received punishment for defying orders - a dressing-down from Collins, for which he made De Biastre wait 45 minutes. According to another (named) US officer, it was after this that De Biastre lodged his complaint, “out of spite”. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/12 "2003-05-26T15:37:25Z")
According to the Telegraph today, Collins has been totally vindicated. It trnspires that his accuser never saw any of the alleged incidents and his main source was a Baathist informer. I hope that De Biastre is subject to discipline himself. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/13 "2003-09-02T10:07:55Z")
Update. He was cleared [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/3198047.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3198047.stm) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/14 "2003-09-02T12:54:17Z")
Honestly, if the WORST accusation was hitting someone… I mean, you have to pick your battles. If you want to uphold the Genevan Convention, I’d rather go after the alleged war criminals who might have actually killed someone. There’s so many of them in Bosnia (and parts abroad where they fled to after the war) I don’t think the country has enough rope to hang them all. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/15 "2003-09-02T13:23:49Z")
Sounds like De Biastre is being a prick of the highest order. Assuming this was just a vindictive bout, I certainly hope this reflects on De Biastre at his next review, if not sooner. Certainly, this was ‘conduct unbecoming…’. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-colonel-under-investigation-for-alleged-war-crimes/176538/16 "2003-09-02T15:38:01Z")
My original understanding of this was as per that Ananova link posted by **jhonhcole** ; a small group of US part-time soldiers were attached to the Irish for recon, Colonel roasted them regularly for not being up to the mark (as is his style), someone in the US detachment decided to get revenge after the war by smearing Colonel with no-smoke-without-fire accusations – at least that’s the story that came out the backdoor of the MOD at the time all this blew up. For a reason I’m not sure of, a reported on the Evening Standard was good for sources on this one ([thislondon.co.uk](http://thislondon.co.uk), I belive). I know he wasn’t popular with his fellow Officers in other Regiments because of the eve-of-battle speech, but I understand it wasn’t any of them who fingered him. Anyway, whoever did the smearing presumably think they got the job intended.