# British Cyclists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2005, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021 "2005-06-27T11:07:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/81 "2005-06-28T10:59:41Z")
Regular as clockworks these threads are. Nobody can actually defend the antics of the cyclists actually pitted, so we turn to the evils of **The Motorists**. That’s right, **The Motorists**. Huge packs of 'em careening down the motorways crushing old ladies and orphans. How dare you even question the poor innocent cyclists and completely ignore the danger of **The Motorists**? When’s the last time you heard of a cyclist killing a nun? How about **The Motorists**? They nuns all the time. Practically a sport to 'em. Cyclists simply cannot be inconsiderate or rude or anything but saintly because **The Motorists** are so much worse. Just once I would love to see a thread about cyclists where noone compares them to motorists. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/82 "2005-06-28T11:02:16Z")
Not only that but I think you’ll find GorillaMan that Road Tax only pays a very small percentage of road building/maintenance costs anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/83 "2005-06-28T11:07:03Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Regular as clockworks these threads are. Nobody can actually defend the antics of the cyclists actually pitted, so we turn to the evils of **The Motorists**. Perhaps that is becuase the misdeeds of cyclists are a molehill everyone insists is Mount Everest. By comparison, the misdeeds of motorists is a mountain everyone pretends is not there. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/84 "2005-06-28T11:10:56Z")
> [@Mr. Miskatonic](#): > > Perhaps that is becuase the misdeeds of cyclists are a molehill everyone insists is Mount Everest. > > By comparison, the misdeeds of motorists is a mountain everyone pretends is not there. Yeah, but the threat of motorists is nothing compared to the threat of terrorists. Motorists are a dream compared to terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/85 "2005-06-28T11:11:32Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Just once I would love to see a thread about cyclists where noone compares them to motorists. If we hadn’t got an infrastructure designed specifically around the ‘needs’ of motorists, often at the expense of others, and that didn’t also have designed into it extra safety measures to combat the moronic motorists, then maybe we’d see the absence you desire. By forcing other users to accomodate a motorist-dominated environment, it makes the errors & selfishness of the motorists all the more apparent. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/86 "2005-06-28T11:15:25Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Yeah, but the threat of motorists is nothing compared to the threat of terrorists. Motorists are a dream compared to terrorists. Are you certain? Last I checked, terrorists did not kill some 50,000 people each year in the United States alone. I think the terrorist record year was just above 3000 people killed in the US. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/87 "2005-06-28T11:16:05Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > If we hadn’t got an infrastructure designed specifically around the ‘needs’ of motorists, often at the expense of others, and that didn’t also have designed into it extra safety measures to combat the moronic motorists, then maybe we’d see the absence you desire. By forcing other users to accomodate a motorist-dominated environment, it makes the errors & selfishness of the motorists all the more apparent. But this thread isn’t about the errors and selfishness of motorists is it? That just sort of got dragged in here by people who apparently think cyclists should be absolved of every behavior because motorists are worse. That’s like going into every Bush bashing thread and saying that Bush is a good president simply because he isn’t Pol Pot. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/88 "2005-06-28T11:19:15Z")
> [@Mr. Miskatonic](#): > > Are you certain? Last I checked, terrorists did not kill some 50,000 people each year in the United States alone. I think the terrorist record year was just above 3000 people killed in the US. > > Try again. It’s not the numbers. It’s the premise. A is good simply because B is worse. It’s stupid. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/89 "2005-06-28T11:19:27Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > But this thread isn’t about the errors and selfishness of motorists is it? That just sort of got dragged in here Yeah - because the OP didn’t make any mention of motorists… > [@Stryfe](#): > > I spend a good deal of time trvelling by train and tend to walk from the train station to my destination. **Who is my greatest nemesis in this journey** (besides the rail companies), **not evil car drivers, lorries or buses?** Nope. it’s the british cyclist. > > **At least the other forms of transport show a modicum of respect for the highway code, even if only in passing** , but the amount of cyclists that don’t stop at traffic lights and pedestrian crossings is amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/90 "2005-06-28T11:19:56Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Regular as clockworks these threads are. Nobody can actually defend the antics of the cyclists actually pitted, so we turn to the evils of **The Motorists**. Try me. The cyclists actually pitted don’t exist. Read the OP. The cylists being pitted are the non-law abiding ones that (allegedly) are a real danger to pedestrians. They don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/91 "2005-06-28T11:22:10Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Yeah, but the threat of motorists is nothing compared to the threat of terrorists. Motorists are a dream compared to terrorists. If you want a really, really good example of your disconnect from reality, you need to think about this a bit longer. I’ll give you a clue. There were 25,000 deaths or serious injuries in the UK alone caused by motorists. Now, think real hard about terrorists in the UK over the same period… ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/92 "2005-06-28T11:22:10Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Yeah - because the OP didn’t make any mention of motorists… Yeah, because the op completely denied that cars are capable of wrongdoing because of cyclists. > [@](#): > > **At least the other forms of transport show a modicum of respect for the highway code, even if only in passing** Princhester, how do you know they don’t exist? Been stalking dopers lately? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/93 "2005-06-28T11:24:04Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > If you want a really, really good example of your disconnect from reality, you need to think about this a bit longer. I’ll give you a clue. There were 25,000 deaths or serious injuries in the UK alone caused by motorists. Now, think real hard about terrorists in the UK over the same period… Like I said earlier, it’s not about the numbers. I know cars are far more dangerous than cyclists. It’s the fucking idea that something cannot be bad simply because worse things exist. Do you go into work related pit threads and say that a persons job isn’t bad because they don’t work in a sweat shop? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/94 "2005-06-28T11:25:01Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Yeah, because the op completely denied that cars are capable of wrongdoing because of cyclists. Oh, don’t be silly. Has anybody claimed that cyclists are incapable of wrongdoing? It’s stupid to complain when replies compare misdeeds of cyclists with those of motorists, _when the OP did just that_. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/95 "2005-06-28T11:27:31Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Oh, don’t be silly. Has anybody claimed that cyclists are incapable of wrongdoing? > > It’s stupid to complain when replies compare misdeeds of cyclists with those of motorists, _when the OP did just that_. Oh for god sake he’s talking about his drive to work, not the broad ranging stats everyone else is reaching for. Is a little bit of hyperbole really worth this much argument? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/96 "2005-06-28T11:32:56Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > It’s not the numbers. It’s the premise. A is good simply because B is worse. It’s stupid. My first post in this thread was in response to TheLoadedDog who claimed that car drivers rarely, if ever, break traffic laws. By comparison, he claimed all cyclists break all the laws. Not only was this completely incorrect, but it was the same comparison you are now whining about. I don’t claim A is good because B is worse, I claim that A is being targeted unfairly as a threat when a much bigger one exists. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/97 "2005-06-28T11:43:01Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > The cylists being pitted are the non-law abiding ones that (allegedly) are a real danger to pedestrians. They don’t exist. > [@Mr. Miskatonic](#): > > My first post in this thread was in response to TheLoadedDog who claimed that car drivers rarely, if ever, break traffic laws. By comparison, he claimed all cyclists break all the laws AAAAUUUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!!! My head is starting to hurt. This is now starting to get surreal. No cyclist anywhere, ever, has done ANYTHING wrong. Ever. At all. Is that right? And I’m now saying stuff I didn’t say. Yes? Hokay… You guys have completely discredited yourselves. I’m outta this thread. Claim you’ve hounded me away by all means, but this has gone off into fucking cuckooland, and I trust the judgement of the several hundred sane people who have viewed this thread to be with me on this. To the sensible cyclists out there, you have my sympathy that these nutters are on your side. Good day to you all. Fucking fruitcakes. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/98 "2005-06-28T11:43:47Z")
> [@Mr. Miskatonic](#): > > My first post in this thread was in response to TheLoadedDog who claimed that car drivers rarely, if ever, break traffic laws. By comparison, he claimed all cyclists break all the laws. Not only was this completely incorrect, but it was the same comparison you are now whining about. > > I don’t claim A is good because B is worse, I claim that A is being targeted unfairly as a threat when a much bigger one exists. Actually, my post was primarily in response to Casdaves posts in the thread accusing drivers of, amongst other things, being unable to walk anywhere over one millimeter farther than they must. He also says… > [@](#): > > I suggest the OP or any of you idiot cycle bashers actually take a ride in a city on a bicycle and attempt to make a journey, one, because you might find it invigorating, two, because around two thirds of all car journeys are under five miles and you are just fucking lazy fat bastards, three, to find out whats its really like so you can keep your ignorant, fuck faced, stupid, ill judged comments to yourselves when you find out what happens on the roads, and last of all, because you’ll probably get a sore arse the first couple of times you ride and you’ll deserve it, as it’ll save me the effort from giving you one up the jacksy to fuck some sense into you. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/99 "2005-06-28T11:49:30Z")
It’s nice to be told you’re discredited through missing the finer points of the discussion by somebody who’s first contribution was > [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > Happens in Sydney too. They’re a self-righteous pack of arseholes in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021/100 "2005-06-28T12:00:37Z")
I know you meant your terrorist example as an illustration, it’s just that the example you chose says interesting things about how well you grok the proportionality of this debate. Every human activity involves risk. Everything we do is a trade-off between time, convenience, fun etc and risk. Every choice we make about how we behave (even completely law abiding choices) has risk implications. If I decide to play a round of golf that is an utterly law abiding and socially normal activity, but creates real risks for other golfers and for people and property surrounding the golf course. I’m sure you wouldn’t chastise me for making a decision to play a round of golf. Why not? According to you, I can’t justify my decision simply on the basis that there are other activities I could indulge in that would create more risk. In fact, to pretend that one can consider whether non-law abiding behaviour of cyclists is actually significantly bad without considering the surrounding matrix of risks and behaviours that we consider to be normal is unrealistic. If it annoys you to have cyclists compared to motorists as such, instead of thinking of motorists as a specific relevant example of other road users, just think of them as an illustrative data point that shows the type of risk level that we consider acceptable and normal in average western society. The level of threat to the OP due to cyclist behaviour is actually something close to 200 times lower than the level of threat posed by an ordinary, indeed all pervasive aspect of normal western society. Ergo, it must not be bad or threatening, in any real sense. Yet the OP percieves it to be, and so do you. The fact is, the operative premise is irrational. And no I haven’t been stalking dopers. I don’t need to. Unless the OP’s personal circumstances involve a 200/1 anomaly, the dangerous cyclists the OP perceives, do not exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-cyclists/310021.md?page=6)