# British Dopers, are things in the UK as bad as this Harper's article says they are? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610 "2011-10-24T06:56:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/21 "2011-10-24T19:07:26Z")
I found Heathrow miles better than either Newark or LAX. It was welcoming, the shops were open late, it was spacious and warm and the facilities were good. There’s a tube directly into central London that you walk into straight from the airport and it costs about £4 cash. Aruvqan’s right about many of the tube’s deficiencies being due to it being really, really old - the oldest sections (including some of the ones still among the most highly-used) are 148 years old. There are limits to what can be done about that. And the huge size means that really it should be compared to the transport system of a different system _and_ all its outlying areas rather than much smaller networks. As someone who really does live in England I don’t find it to be broken at all. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/22 "2011-10-24T19:24:32Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > As a Brit who’s been living in the states for a while (but gets back pretty regularly), I’d say its mainly exaggeration, or rather ridiculous extrapolation (Britains broken because the airports shutdown in the snow, since when has Britain NOT shut down in the snow ?). My daughter was stuck in Heathrow from this, and there wasn’t that much snow. Gatwick, with the same amount, reopened and was back to normal quite quickly. The real cause was the new owner saving money, which is hardly limited to the U.K. BTW, I went through Heathrow in 1980, and it was hardly the nicest airport I’ve ever seen. It was much better in '96, actually. As for the weird train bit, one could construct an equally amusing story around US airline fares. The more interesting question, which I thought this thread was going to be about is the impact of the austerity program on life. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/23 "2011-10-24T19:48:27Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Aruvqan’s right about many of the tube’s deficiencies being due to it being really, really old - the oldest sections (including some of the ones still among the most highly-used) are 148 years old. There are limits to what can be done about that. And the huge size means that really it should be compared to the transport system of a different system _and_ all its outlying areas rather than much smaller networks Yeah, comparing the Tube to tiny subway systems in other cities is a far from fair comparison. It’s easy to keep a small subway system in perfect condition. And, frankly, the Tube isn’t any worse that the New York subway, which is of a comparable size. Plus it’s getting free wifi soon! ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/24 "2011-10-24T21:10:25Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Yeah, comparing the Tube to tiny subway systems in other cities is a far from fair comparison. It’s easy to keep a small subway system in perfect condition. And, frankly, the Tube isn’t any worse that the New York subway, which is of a comparable size. Plus it’s getting free wifi soon! Of course in other countries your 3G mobile connection has been working on the underground for years… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/25 "2011-10-24T21:33:47Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Harper’s Magazine? I’ve never seen it, but Wikipedia tells me it’s a far-left American magazine. _Far_ left? Mmmm. It’s on the left, but only far-left from a very far-right American perspective. It’s certainly not far-left from the perspective of countries whose center is considerably to the left of the American center. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/26 "2011-10-24T21:44:05Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > It’s satire but it’s right on the money - corporate entities with the decision-makers five or ten layers removed from the people who have to enforce the rules, but without the service culture of the US. We have a **better** “service culture” than the UK now?! When did **that** happen?! ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/27 "2011-10-24T22:01:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We have a **better** “service culture” than the UK now?! When did **that** happen?! You always have had. Read one of the many, many frequent threads here about tipping cultures. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/28 "2011-10-24T22:02:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We have a **better** “service culture” than the UK now?! When did **that** happen?! Errrr I’d argue pretty strongly that’s not the case. Having ended up in customer service hell on both sides of the Atlantic I would say the problem of “decision-makers five or ten layers removed from the people who have to enforce the rules” is just as bad in the states, if not worse. Its something I’ve always wondered about about modern capitalism as to why it seems to encourage layer-upon-layer of middle men that don’t seem to add any value to the transaction. My most recent example of this. I was told by guy in the Sprint store when I got my phone that it would cost $50 to replace my phone if I got the insurance, so I got the insurance. Now I need to replace my phone, and it will cost $100. But the insurance it turns out is actually provided by a different company entirely, that has nothing to do with Sprint. Its not _their_ problem that I was told that by an employee of a different company, they charge $100 and that’s final. I can’t count the number time something like this happens nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/29 "2011-10-24T22:33:23Z")
Meh, I think it’s 99% exaggeration. Citizens of any country can find things to complain about. Some things are better here, some things worse. I was reading a forum for ex-pats in France the other day, and they were all moaning about how French retailers are in the dark ages and have no concept of customer service or new-fangled ideas such as the internet, and how they order stuff from UK websites so that they can collect it on their visits back home, at much lower prices. I’m sure other ex-pats have similar tales to tell. Other countries are shit, too, in other words. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/30 "2011-10-24T22:55:30Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > You always have had. Read one of the many, many frequent threads here about tipping cultures. 🙂 😕 Is that relevant? One does not tip the civil servant. (One bribes.) ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/31 "2011-10-24T23:10:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Is that relevant? One does not tip the civil servant. (One bribes.) The example in the original post was a satire about dealing with an employee at a private rail company, not a civil servant. FWIW, while I wouldn’t recommend it as a hobby, I’d say dealing with UK civil servants if generally more pleasant than their US equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/32 "2011-10-25T01:38:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Is that relevant? One does not tip the civil servant. (One bribes.) Are civil servants part of the service culture? I thought it meant waiters and so on. I tend to prefer the UK style because the US style is more in your face. The UK style at its worst can be stand-offish and rude, and the US at its worst can be obsequious and rude. If you’re used to one then the other can be annoying. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/33 "2011-10-25T02:36:41Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Are civil servants part of the service culture? I thought it meant waiters and so on. > > I tend to prefer the UK style because the US style is more in your face. The UK style at its worst can be stand-offish and rude, and the US at its worst can be obsequious and rude. If you’re used to one then the other can be annoying. Could be worse. From all I hear, the Australian style at its worst can be traumatically injurious and rude. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/34 "2011-10-25T03:13:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Is that relevant? One does not tip the civil servant. (One bribes.) I understand “service culture” to refer to the service industry, not to government workers. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/35 "2011-10-25T08:21:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Could be worse. From all I hear, the Australian style at its worst can be traumatically injurious and rude. 😉 I tought that was Australian rules football? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/36 "2011-10-25T09:13:10Z")
Never travelled via Heathrow, so I wouldn’t know whether the complaints are true or not. What happened with Heathrow shutting down during the snow was a national embarrassment, though. They started busing passengers up to Manchester Airport at one stage, despite the North West being the coldest area in the country at the time (-21C, IIRC) and itself having near blizzard conditions over the period. Yet the local authority owned airport remained open throughout. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/37 "2011-10-25T10:10:21Z")
Privatising the rail system didn’t work, and cost lives, exactly as stated. The London tube system is actually pretty good, IMO - my very favourite part of the trip any time I go there. It’s a bit grotty, rattly, crowded, but that’s par for the course, as far as I’m concerned. I don’t live there though, so maybe it’s a bit different if you have to use it every day. I do travel by main line train a lot though, and the anecdote quoted by **jjimm** is utterly foreign to me. Trains do get cancelled and delayed, but averaged across all journeys, I think road users probably suffer more inconvenience from accidents, roadworks and congestion. When there’s an emergency or incident, the rail companies often employ a policy of getting people home no matter what - for example, honouring tickets issued for other routes/carriers, opening up first class seats and overlooking peak travel restrictions. Almost without exception, I’ve found the onboard and station staff helpful in finding the best and cheapest options for my travel - and on the few occasions where I was in the wrong - I’ve nodded off and missed my stop a few times - they were understanding and helped me out without any extra cost. I travel extensively by train and the _only_ times I’ve seen passengers having a hard time from the staff/system has been: [ul] [li]Fare dodgers (usually chavs) trying to make excuses for their lack of ticket.[/li][li]Passengers who had some genuine problem, but went in with all guns blazing when they approached staff about it.[/li][/ul] Of course, this is all anecdote, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/38 "2011-10-25T12:38:41Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’ll try to read the article when I have a chance to go to the library. However, I do know there are conservative and libertarian sources with a similar attitude towards developments in modern Britain, though with a different focus. [For instance](http://www.theamericanconservative.com/article/2006/may/08/00016/): > > > [@](#): > > > > We have a Civil Contingencies Act that, once an emergency has been declared, gives the government the power to cancel existing laws, to order citizens to move or to stay where they are, in short, to act like a dictatorship. We have a succession of Terrorism Acts that give police officers enormous arbitrary authority they never had before, a power they have already begun to abuse. During a recent convention of the governing Labour Party in the seaside town of Brighton, this law was used dozens of times against people doing such dangerous things as wearing T-shirts bearing anti-government slogans. Notoriously, the police gave it as their excuse for helping to eject an elderly protestor from the convention hall after he heckled a member of the government. > > … > > While these changes proceed, the government also presses fiercely ahead with a scheme to compel all British citizens to register for identity cards. Officially, this is voluntary, but from 2008 anyone who renews a passport will be placed on the register and compelled to have his eyeballs scanned, his fingerprints taken, and his personal details compulsorily recorded—a fate hitherto reserved mainly for convicted sexual offenders and cattle. He will then, at great personal expense, be presented with an identity card for which he has not asked, though for an unspecified period the issue of the actual card will be optional. Registration will be increasingly inescapable. In a small country where most people take holidays abroad quite frequently, this will rapidly compel millions to take part in the allegedly non-compulsory scheme. Once this has happened, general compulsion and an obligation to carry this breathing license at all times will probably follow. Challenged to justify this measure, the government has claimed in turn that it will fight crime, terrorism, and identity theft. But these arguments have been repeatedly slashed to pieces in both Houses of Parliament. There is no good evidence that such cards will achieve anything of the kind and much evidence that they will increase official interference in private lives, as well as undermining the fundamental principle of free societies—that the state must justify itself to the citizenry rather than the other way round. > > … > > Meanwhile a measure passed in 1986 in a panicky attempt to curb bad behavior at soccer matches, the Public Order Act, is increasingly being used to prosecute people whose public statements are thought by police officers to be likely to cause offense to others. In several cases, objectors to homosexual equality laws have been prosecuted or threatened, in one case after a broadcaster on the BBC voiced criticisms of laws allowing homosexual couples to adopt children. Even Tony Blair has been investigated over published allegations that he was once rude about the people of Wales in an entirely private context. > > [And this:](http://reason.com/archives/2007/08/01/rant-tony-the-nanny) > > > [@](#): > > > > The cameras are everywhere, and they are getting cleverer all the time. Some come with automatic number plate recognition, facial recognition, even suspicious behavior recognition-internal software that analyzes clusters and movements of pixels in CCTV footage in search of “behavioral oddities.” British scientists, backed by a £500,000 government grant, are currently developing cameras with “gait recognition.” These are supposed to alert a human operator when people are walking suspiciously. Think of it as a Ministry of Unsilly Walks. > > … > > These schemes are part of the government’s drive against “anti-social behavior.” Eight years ago New Labour introduced Anti-Social Behavior Orders (ASBOs), written decrees which tell specific individuals how they must behave. A local authority can issue an ASBO forbidding an individual from walking down a certain street, using bad language in public, or even wearing a hooded sweatshirt, without having to prove in a court of law that the individual is guilty of anything. ASBOs are dished out on the whim of local officials and on the basis of hearsay rather than hard evidence of misdemeanor. I’ve no love of the loss of freedoms Britain has seen over the years in the name of security but these two pieces are just over the top hyperpole - either out of date or plain wrong. Just to take a couple of examples: in the first paragraph the bit on the Civil Contingencies Act fails to mention that alterations to existing laws can only last for 21 days unless extended by Parliament nor that it cannot alter the Human Rights Act. From the second piece, ASBOs are not issued by local Authorities on a whim. They are issued by the courts when presented with evidence of a pattern of behaviour.(I don’t say they are particularly effective or sensible but at least get the facts right) On the OP I don’t think Britain is broken – there are things I would wish were otherwise – but generally it’s a good place to live. As others have said rail privatisation was botched and trains are certainly expensive but they are also very popular – just try to get a seat from Oxford to London most times! The Tube shows its age but it is an incredibly effective way of getting around London while Heathrow is no worse than most major airports I’ve been through. The older terminals (1, 2, and 3) are not as pretty as the big new terminals elsewhere but the range of shops and restaurants is pretty good. They’ve even managed to speed up the security checking – took much less time than I expected recently when going through Terminal 2. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/39 "2011-10-25T12:51:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We have a **better** “service culture” than the UK now?! When did **that** happen?! I posted this to my Facebook earlier this year as a sign that the end times were upon us: [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/business/pret-a-manger-with-new-fast-food-ideas-gains-a-foothold-in-united-states.html?\_r=1](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/business/pret-a-manger-with-new-fast-food-ideas-gains-a-foothold-in-united-states.html?_r=1) ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/40 "2011-10-25T13:28:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Eight years ago New Labour introduced Anti-Social Behavior Orders (ASBOs), written decrees which tell specific individuals how they must behave. A local authority can issue an ASBO forbidding an individual from walking down a certain street, using bad language in public, or even wearing a hooded sweatshirt, without having to prove in a court of law that the individual is guilty of anything. ASBOs are dished out on the whim of local officials and on the basis of hearsay rather than hard evidence of misdemeanor. This is not true. ASBOs (which are ending soon anyway) are a civil court order similar to the more common injunction issued by the Magistrate’s Court. They have a heightened civil burden of proof above that of an injunction or the like; similar to a criminal standard of proof. As for “hearsay” - yes, witness statements constitute evidence; this is perfectly normal, although the Court of Appeal holds the position that the burden of proof cannot be met if the case consists solely of witness statements. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610.md?page=3)