# British Dopers, are things in the UK as bad as this Harper's article says they are? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610 "2011-10-24T06:56:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/41 "2011-10-25T14:48:00Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Never travelled via Heathrow, so I wouldn’t know whether the complaints are true or not. What happened with Heathrow shutting down during the snow was a national embarrassment, though. As much of an Anglophile as I am, I have to agree with you. I got stuck in Italy as a result of Heathrow shutting down back in Dec 2010, and was really, really baffled as to how one of the busiest (the busiest?) airports in the world could be so totally crushed by what seemed like a nominal amount of snow. Even here in Dallas, where ice and snow are pretty rare, our airport wasn’t totally crippled back in February of this year by the 3 straight days of ice and about 5" of snow, and it wasn’t out of commission for half as long as Heathrow was. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/42 "2011-10-25T16:39:22Z")
I’ve been flying in and out of Heathrow for 20 years. It is, by far, my favorite mega-airport, except for Schipol. Comparing it to Vancouver or Zurich is unfair; compare it to JFK instead. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/43 "2011-10-25T17:44:37Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > The attitude is summed up in a book I’m reading at the moment - _Lights out in Wonderland_ by DBC Pierre, written last year. It’s satire but it’s right on the money - corporate entities with the decision-makers five or ten layers removed from the people who have to enforce the rules, but without the service culture of the US. It leaves the consumer feeling powerless and frustrated. Edited passage: I had very nearly that exact exchange you quoted with the EuroStar folks in the UK. They made me sit for hours as train after train departed, some with more than half the seats empty, because they could not dream of letting me on one of the other trains when mine had been canceled. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/44 "2011-10-25T18:16:33Z")
> [@bump](#): > > As much of an Anglophile as I am, I have to agree with you. I got stuck in Italy as a result of Heathrow shutting down back in Dec 2010, and was really, really baffled as to how one of the busiest (the busiest?) airports in the world could be so totally crushed by what seemed like a nominal amount of snow. But my point is this is really nothing new, not the ominous sign of a society on decline. For as long as I cam remember Britain has been shutting down at the first hint of “extreme” weather (and Britons have been wryly complaining about). I remember the train system shutting down in my youth because of (and I quote the rail companies exactly here): “The wrong type of snow”. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/45 "2011-10-28T12:39:53Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I do travel by main line train a lot though, and the anecdote quoted by **jjimm** is utterly foreign to me. Trains do get cancelled and delayed, but averaged across all journeys, I think road users probably suffer more inconvenience from accidents, roadworks and congestion. When there’s an emergency or incident, the rail companies often employ a policy of getting people home no matter what - for example, honouring tickets issued for other routes/carriers, opening up first class seats and overlooking peak travel restrictions. > > Almost without exception, I’ve found the onboard and station staff helpful in finding the best and cheapest options for my travel - and on the few occasions where I was in the wrong - I’ve nodded off and missed my stop a few times - they were understanding and helped me out without any extra cost. > > I travel extensively by train and the _only_ times I’ve seen passengers having a hard time from the staff/system has been: > [ul] > [li]Fare dodgers (usually chavs) trying to make excuses for their lack of ticket.[/li][li]Passengers who had some genuine problem, but went in with all guns blazing when they approached staff about it.[/li][/ul] > > Of course, this is all anecdote, YMMV. If we’re having an anecdote-off, here 's mine: I was visiting a friend who lives near Manchester a few weeks ago. I was staying in Manchester and he lives in Macclesfield, which is half an hour away by train. I go into the train station to the big bank of ticket machines and get myself a return ticket from Manchester to Macclesfield. As the train arrives at Macclesfield a conductor inspects my ticket and says “sorry, this isn’t valid on this service”. Me: 😕 . Him; This is a virgin trains ticket, and this is a country and western service, so it’s not valid. I need to sell you a new one. When I got back to Manchester I looked at the machines and didn’t see any notices stressing they were valid only on their services, and it wasn’t until I retraced my steps on the machine that I noticed in brackets on some of the options (only valid on virgin trains). Given that the machines have big signs next to them saying “In a hurry? Get your tickets here!” I think such an approach to selling is disingenuous to almost qualify as fraud. Train companies are rip off merchants, fuck them in their stupid gay arseholes. Given how essential they are to the economy I can’t believe we’ve let it get this bad. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/46 "2011-10-28T22:26:16Z")
LOL. A proper hatchet job. ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/47 "2011-10-30T10:58:35Z")
This song for me summed up some salient points about The Tube. (Warning Pit language used) NSFW And was recorded before the Met were into executing Brazilian electricians on the Tube > **[backingblair.co.uk](http://www.backingblair.co.uk/london_underground/)** > > This domain may be for sale! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/48 "2011-10-30T11:47:55Z")
So, does anybody have any solutions in mind for all this? Because, based on what political chatter I see from Brits in this forum all the time, it seems the people now have no real confidence in or enthusiasm for any of the three major parties. Nor are there any significant fourth-party or extra-party or intra-party insurgencies going on, like the Tea Party. There’s been some rioting, but that’s all. (There’s OWS, but, in the UK as elsewhere, we can’t even guess its future effects yet.) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/49 "2011-10-30T12:38:46Z")
That lack of confidence is a reaction due to the economic downturn, and the lack of strong political direction and leadership at the top. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/50 "2011-10-30T12:58:06Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > That lack of confidence is a reaction due to the economic downturn, and the lack of strong political direction and leadership at the top. Speak for yourself. I lost all confidence at the start of the Iraq war. Only the Lib Dems voted against it, but they had no chance of getting into power (bitter laughter). ---
**Author:** ![drbhoneydew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d78d45/32.png) [@drbhoneydew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drbhoneydew)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/51 "2011-10-30T14:01:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Because, based on what political chatter I see from Brits in this forum all the time, it seems the people now have no real confidence in or enthusiasm for any of the three major parties. Nor are there any significant fourth-party or extra-party or intra-party insurgencies going on, like the Tea Party. I think there are two reasons for this - firstly, things aren’t as bad as all that, at least for the politically active, and by and large the politicians are usually very careful at throwing sops in the direction of the politically inactive to keep them from rioting. Secondly, the political mainstream has the mythical centre ground pretty well surrounded. The nature of political debate as structured by the media means that every issue is presented as a choice between black and white or, if we’re really lucky, one shade of grey. Ironically, this means that one never actually gets a politician representing the true centre as there’s a hole as big as journalists can understand the difference in opinion (so pretty big!). There have been 4th party insurgencies - UKIP is probably the most recent, but they’ve struggled in being taken seriously as anything other than a single issue party so don’t do well outside of the European elections. Labour used to have hugely vocal ideological differences within their ranks, but now mostly keep quiet about them for the sake of power (or a better attempt at it). > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, does anybody have any solutions in mind for all this? Nuanced journalism would be a start, or at least less of the shrieking take one side or the other sort. Find some way of getting more independents into parliament in particular and politics in general. Much of the debate surrounding the reform of the House of Lords is focused around having them elected, but I fear that this will end up with more career politicians taking residence at the expense of the few genuine experts we have in there. I don’t want a presidential system, but one thing I’d take from that is separate legislative and executive representative elections. We have too much stifling of debate by the use of the carrot of patronage (ie shut up and you might get a better office). Finally, and I don’t know if there’s a genuine solution other than having greater political pluralism - stop the various parties from instituting policies while in power that have the sole purpose of screwing the other lot over. This is why privatisations have generally been rushed and mismanaged. The trains, while bad, are avoidable and are probably nearly as bad as they can get without the politicians being forced to do something. The energy companies on the other hand have the politicians over a barrel as they own both supply and generation and so will continue to get worse for the foreseeable future. Is any of this going to come to pass? I doubt it but still, I write to my MP in the possibly vain hope that elevation to parliament hasn’t deprived him of the power of critical thinking… ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/52 "2011-10-30T14:16:43Z")
We’re still in the early days of what might be a long term economic problem, that is, literally huge numbers of economic migrants, (mostly from eastern Europe) who because of the differences in the cost of living there are happy to work for minimum wage, or even illegally below M.W. for six months/a year whatever, spending the bare minimum in our economy and then returning home having remitted the bulk of their pay. They are then replaced literally on the next flight/bus from E.U. This means that money which otherwise would have circulated in the U.K creating new jobs and maintaining existing ones is bled off. As they also are happy to work ignoring basic H&S and welfare requirments (paid holidays etc.) they have effectively put not inconsequential numbers of homegrown workers either out of work, quite often permamently and reduced many others to working for the same very low wages. In the construction industry especially, qualification fraud within the community of migrant workers from europe is widespread, with Quals, known as “tickets”, printed off of the internet, forged, or the exams sat by ringers. This is aided and abetted by unscrupulous employers out to maximise profits over quality, and the difficulty of many, if not most Brits to check Slavic names as individuals and their job histories. If something goes seriously wrong on site it is usually only then that the tickets are discovered to be fraudulant, but the individual disappears home to Poland for a while and then resurfaces in a different region of the U.K. with a new set of duff tickets. London getting the next Summer Olympics was hailed by many as a huge boost to Polands economy. I am no leftwinger, but its basically a couple of hundred years of ordinary, and not so ordinary people legislating to receive humane working conditions and basic rights, down the tubes within the last very few years… The old chestnut that they are doing jobs that Brits don’t want to, is not only nonesense…, (with the caveat of those who have not long left full time education and who often have been given unrealistic expectations as part of their education) But a serious insult to the experienced, skilled workers, who have after decades of work been reduced to working at jobs that they are very overqualified for, for low pay, if of course they can get a job at all. Please note that the vast majority of the migrant workers are in the U.K., and working legally, so no easy remedy is apparent, unless the cost of, and standard of living in the poorer E,U, countries rises to match our own, or more likely ours drops to theirs. In case you’re wondering I am, and have always been pro European Community. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/53 "2011-10-30T17:06:19Z")
> [@drbhoneydew](#): > > I don’t want a presidential system, but one thing I’d take from that is separate legislative and executive representative elections. 😕 That’s pretty much the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/54 "2011-10-30T17:16:45Z")
In other words Lust4life “[THEY TOOK AR JAHBBBS!!!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brj2UkUPjCI)”. ---
**Author:** ![drbhoneydew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d78d45/32.png) [@drbhoneydew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drbhoneydew)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/55 "2011-10-31T10:26:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 That’s pretty much the whole thing. No it’s not. Presidential systems vary quite widely in whether the president is given executive power at all. Compare France, Germany and the US. All have a president. I’m not entirely sure what I want. Something like a separate vote for local MP and Prime Minister as part of the same ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/56 "2011-10-31T11:42:04Z")
I think the bad situation in Britain is grossly overexaggerated in the media. I took my daughter to preschool this morning and had no trouble at all with the cannibalistic hobos since I had my flaming torch with me. Then I got a roof space on the 0812 into Lewisham without any problem, and the sewage and industrial waste on the Thames was thick enough that I could just stroll across without delay. In other words, a quick, easy commute. Some people just like to complain, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/57 "2011-10-31T12:37:21Z")
I haven’t read the article. (And would never consider Harper’s “far left”–even by American standards.) But I’m always suspicious when somebody says that something social or political is “broken.” That is, totally non-functioning. There are problems? Quite possibly. Nor have I visited the UK. But, if I get the chance, I’d be glad to tough it out! ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/58 "2011-10-31T12:42:20Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > In other words Lust4life “[THEY TOOK AR JAHBBBS!!!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brj2UkUPjCI)”. Sorry mate, not into South Park, more of a Family Guy myself. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/59 "2011-10-31T13:11:10Z")
A goodly percentage of the Poles who came over when Poland first joined the EU went home again when the economic meltdown meant that they would no longer be earning significantly more in the UK than they would at home in Poland. Ironically, the initial tabloid-driven panic of “OMFG THEY’RE TAKING OUR JOBS!!!” had turned to “Hey, those competent hard-working family-oriented Poles are all leaving and we’ll have to go back to using dodgy overcharging British cowboys again” by that point. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/60 "2011-10-31T13:14:39Z")
> [@drbhoneydew](#): > > No it’s not. Presidential systems vary quite widely in whether the president is given executive power at all. Compare France, Germany and the US. All have a president. > > I’m not entirely sure what I want. Something like a separate vote for local MP and Prime Minister as part of the same ballot. Lots of countries have a system like the UK has now but with a figurehead president instead of a queen. The essence of a presidential or separation-of-powers system is that the executive – the **real** one – has an electoral mandate independent of the legislature’s, and can’t be thrown out by a vote of no confidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610.md?page=4)