# British Dopers, are things in the UK as bad as this Harper's article says they are? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610 "2011-10-24T06:56:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/61 "2011-10-31T17:05:46Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > A goodly percentage of the Poles who came over when Poland first joined the EU went home again when the economic meltdown meant that they would no longer be earning significantly more in the UK than they would at home in Poland. Ironically, the initial tabloid-driven panic of “OMFG THEY’RE TAKING OUR JOBS!!!” had turned to “Hey, those competent hard-working family-oriented Poles are all leaving and we’ll have to go back to using dodgy overcharging British cowboys again” by that point. Well actually, when a Polish gangmaster in the U.K. phones up home and says he wants twenty bodies to work on a construction site, would be useful if some of them actually had some construction experience but not to worry as he’ll train them up as they go along, and he’ll even supply the false tickets for them (at a price). Then they can be in the U.K. the following day. So your purely imaginary headline is not ironic, (because its never actually happened, but if I’m wrong please do give me a cite about the hard working,and so on and on) but pure fantasy on your part. I’m assuming that you aren’t really very familiar with the U.K. construction industry, so I’ll just mention that while the Poles may very well be family oriented and are no doubt kind to small, fluffy animals and old people, they are overwhelmingly in the U.K. as unattached men, though they do claim benefits for alleged families back in Poland. So I suppose that you could say that yes, they do love families even if they don’t have one of their own. Had to laugh about the competent and hard working. So I expect that if you develop a leak in your house you’ll be the first to phone for one of the legendry Polish plumbers ? Good luck with that mate. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/62 "2011-10-31T22:41:16Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Well actually, when a Polish gangmaster in the U.K. phones up home and says he wants twenty bodies to work on a construction site, would be useful if some of them actually had some construction experience but not to worry as he’ll train them up as they go along, and he’ll even supply the false tickets for them (at a price). > Then they can be in the U.K. the following day. > > So your purely imaginary headline is not ironic, > (because its never actually happened, but if I’m wrong please do give me a cite about the hard working,and so on and on) > but pure fantasy on your part. > > I’m assuming that you aren’t really very familiar with the U.K. construction industry, so I’ll just mention that while the Poles may very well be family oriented and are no doubt kind to small, fluffy animals and old people, they are overwhelmingly in the U.K. as unattached men, though they do claim benefits for alleged families back in Poland. > > So I suppose that you could say that yes, they do love families even if they don’t have one of their own. > > Had to laugh about the competent and hard working. > > So I expect that if you develop a leak in your house you’ll be the first to phone for one of the legendry Polish plumbers ? > > Good luck with that mate. I live in the same country as you, with the same Polish immigrants, yet my experience is diametrically opposite to yours. I contend you’re simply relaying what you read in the Daily Mail rather than actually providing us any real knowledge based on experience (as usual). ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/63 "2011-11-01T01:33:57Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > We’re still in the early days of what might be a long term economic problem, that is, literally huge numbers of economic migrants, (mostly from eastern Europe) who because of the differences in the cost of living there are happy to work for minimum wage, or even illegally below M.W. for six months/a year whatever, spending the bare minimum in our economy and then returning home having remitted the bulk of their pay. > > They are then replaced literally on the next flight/bus from E.U. > > This means that money which otherwise would have circulated in the U.K creating new jobs and maintaining existing ones is bled off. > > As they also are happy to work ignoring basic H&S and welfare requirments (paid holidays etc.) they have effectively put not inconsequential numbers of homegrown workers either out of work, quite often permamently and reduced many others to working for the same very low wages. > > In the construction industry especially, qualification fraud within the community of migrant workers from europe is widespread, with Quals, known as “tickets”, printed off of the internet, forged, or the exams sat by ringers. > > This is aided and abetted by unscrupulous employers out to maximise profits over quality, and the difficulty of many, if not most Brits to check Slavic names as individuals and their job histories. > > If something goes seriously wrong on site it is usually only then that the tickets are discovered to be fraudulant, but the individual disappears home to Poland for a while and then resurfaces in a different region of the U.K. with a new set of duff tickets. Wow… sounds familiar. Substitute “Mexican” for “Poles”/“Polish”/migrant workers and you have just about the same situation as you have here, except that in your case, it’s entirely legal, while here they’re illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/64 "2011-11-01T01:45:56Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Wow… sounds familiar. Substitute “Mexican” for “Poles”/“Polish”/migrant workers and you have just about the same situation as you have here, except that in your case, it’s entirely legal, while here they’re illegal immigrants. See post #62 and substitute “Fox” for _“Daily Mail.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/65 "2011-11-01T10:24:25Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I live in the same country as you, with the same Polish immigrants, yet my experience is diametrically opposite to yours. I contend you’re simply relaying what you read in the Daily Mail rather than actually providing us any real knowledge based on experience (as usual). Mine too. Those “unattached men” seemed to come with an awful lot of wives and children - the news was full of stories about how the Catholic churches and local schools and doctor’s surgeries in areas where the Polish immigrants were clustered were being overwhelmed by **families**. Maybe the gangmasters hired them too? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/66 "2011-11-01T10:24:54Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I remember the train system shutting down in my youth because of (and I quote the rail companies exactly here): “The wrong type of snow”. I must be older than you as I remember when it was “the wrong type of leaves on the track”. However, I couldn’t believe it when here in Stockholm, STOCKHOLM, they came out with the whole “wrong sort of snow” thing. Somewhere where it hardly ever snows I understand, but here? ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/67 "2011-11-01T10:34:12Z")
I think the key to seeing where Lust4Life is getting their information is apparently these migrant workers are claiming benefits. That is pure Daily Mail right there. If they are stealing our jobs what possible basis have they to claim benefits? The idea that benefits are really easy to claim and that any migrant worker can get them even if they have a job is myth the Daily Mail have been pushing for some time. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/68 "2011-11-01T11:11:32Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I must be older than you as I remember when it was “the wrong type of leaves on the track”. Oh, it still is. In autumn it’s leaves; in winter, snow; in spring, rain; and in summer, heat. Reggie Perrin is now running the railways. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/69 "2011-11-01T12:26:15Z")
> [@drbhoneydew](#): > > Labour used to have hugely vocal ideological differences within their ranks, but now mostly keep quiet about them for the sake of power (or a better attempt at it). Why **isn’t** there a whole lot more voter support in the UK now for **Old** (pre-Blair) Labour’s lefty agenda? Serious question. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/70 "2011-11-01T12:59:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why **isn’t** there a whole lot more voter support in the UK now for **Old** (pre-Blair) Labour’s lefty agenda? Serious question. Because the world has moved on. No one wants the bad old days of endless industrial action, vast(er) incompetent government bureaucracy and people referring to each other as “comrade”. That ship has sailed, and there are very few politicians still espousing those views, and even fewer who have any sanity to them. Actually, I think right now it’s just Tony Benn. And he’s 86. There was some hope amongst the more left-wing types that the Lib Dems could capitalise on voter dissatisfaction with both Labour and the Conservatives and make some real gains, but we’ve seen how well that turned out - the Lib Dems are going to get slaughtered at the next election and they know it. At best right now, the Greens could pick up a few more seats here and there but that’s about it for the Left. Their hope lies in the fact that the Right isn’t doing much better - the Tories are still major players but they’re getting nibbled on the right by UKIP and the BNP, and they daren’t move into those territories. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/71 "2011-11-01T13:29:45Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Because the world has moved on. No one wants the bad old days of endless industrial action, vast(er) incompetent government bureaucracy and people referring to each other as “comrade”. That ship has sailed, and there are very few politicians still espousing those views, and even fewer who have any sanity to them. Yeah, but, based on what I’m reading here, nobody in the UK has yet come up with anything any **better** than all that, quite the reverse. It really seems to be the least inedible dish on the table, despite not being the freshest. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/72 "2011-11-01T14:23:18Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Because the world has moved on. No one wants the bad old days of endless industrial action, vast(er) incompetent government bureaucracy and people referring to each other as “comrade”. That ship has sailed, and there are very few politicians still espousing those views, and even fewer who have any sanity to them. > > Actually, I think right now it’s just Tony Benn. > > And he’s 86. > > There was some hope amongst the more left-wing types that the Lib Dems could capitalise on voter dissatisfaction with both Labour and the Conservatives and make some real gains, but we’ve seen how well that turned out - the Lib Dems are going to get slaughtered at the next election and they know it. At best right now, the Greens could pick up a few more seats here and there but that’s about it for the Left. Their hope lies in the fact that the Right isn’t doing much better - the Tories are still major players but they’re getting nibbled on the right by UKIP and the BNP, and they daren’t move into those territories. Other countries seemed to have managed it without such things. I’m sitting in Sweden. I’m a sysadmin, yet I am a member of a union. Not only that, but a union specifically for people with postgraduate degrees. Germany seems to get by with strong unions. I personally simply find the UK to be a very selfish country. No one cares about anyone else anymore. The “me me me” way of thinking that started in the 80s never went away. Frankly, ‘and people referring to each other as “comrade”’ shows quite clearly that you’re simply spouting an agenda by claiming we don’t want to go back to a past that we never had. That’s not debating, that’s just talking bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/73 "2011-11-01T14:56:10Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Other countries seemed to have managed it without such things. Yes. Those are other countries. > [@](#): > > I’m sitting in Sweden. I’m a sysadmin, yet I am a member of a union. Not only that, but a union specifically for people with postgraduate degrees. I don’t have anything against unions or strikes in principle, but the behavior of many of the 1970s unions was counterproductive and designed to wield petty power at the expense of the larger society. The RMT still pull this bullshit. There are unions which take action against legitimate grievances - the recent teachers’ strikes certainly had some merit - but let’s not pretend that the Winter of Discontent didn’t happen. > [@](#): > > I personally simply find the UK to be a very selfish country. No one cares about anyone else anymore. The “me me me” way of thinking that started in the 80s never went away. Welcome to the Thatcherite revolution. This is the world she dreamed of, the hateful bitch. > [@](#): > > Frankly, ‘and people referring to each other as “comrade”’ shows quite clearly that you’re simply spouting an agenda by claiming we don’t want to go back to a past that we never had. That’s not debating, that’s just talking bollocks. No, that was a reference to Labour conferences in the Foot-Kinnock era. There is actual footage of Labour MPs doing this, you know. But I didn’t mean to imply that people in the street were doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/74 "2011-11-01T17:16:44Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Germany seems to get by with strong unions. > > I personally simply find the UK to be a very selfish country. No one cares about anyone else anymore. The “me me me” way of thinking that started in the 80s never went away. German unions and British unions are hardly the same, though, are they? Wages in Germany have stagnated over the last decade as employers and unions have worked in concert to depress them, increasing German competitiveness. Somehow I can’t see British unions agreeing to a 4.5% decrease in wages for their members across a decade. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/75 "2011-11-01T17:33:39Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes. Those are other countries. . . . Such other countries as there may . . . happen to be. ---
**Author:** ![drbhoneydew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d78d45/32.png) [@drbhoneydew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drbhoneydew)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/76 "2011-11-01T23:39:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why **isn’t** there a whole lot more voter support in the UK now for **Old** (pre-Blair) Labour’s lefty agenda? Serious question. There is, but it’s predominately in the Labour heartlands. Where I grew up, Labour were and still are guaranteed to get in just about no matter what - the village a couple of miles away was known as Little Moscow, so far left was the prevailing politics. This effectively means that Labour can “safely” ignore it. Up to a point anyway - they did lose a couple of local council seats to the Lib Dems a few years back simply because they couldn’t be arsed to do any campaigning round there. The Lib Dems have managed to royally cock up their own act since then so the seats have been regained. Anyway, Blair persuaded the party that the only way they were going to get into power after nearly two decades away from the big boys table was a shift rightwards and the resounding victory that followed convinced some that it was that rightward shift that had won the election, even though they could probably have won it by using a picture of John Prescott’s bottom as the campaign literature that year. It is of great regret that John Smith died when he did as, in general, his approach was more of a modernised leftist agenda than Blair’s cynical shift rightwards. Labour seem to be shifting back a touch leftward again, but Blair had taken them so far to the right that it will probably take a good couple of elections before they can be anything like left wing again and avoid accusations of dangerously jerking to the left in the media. Somewhat ironically, I say all this having never voted Labour - and I can be so left wing at times that Arthur Scargill looks like a moderate. Bizarrely, the Greens would probably get my vote on their **non-environmental** policies if they actually put up a candidate round here. Not that they’d get in, but one can but try. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/77 "2011-11-01T23:55:12Z")
I remember when Britain was the “sick man of Europe”. That was until Thatcher took over #10 downing Street in 79. Have the Brits lost all that ground she gained for them ? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/78 "2011-11-02T00:12:11Z")
Has anyone else noticed that a lot of these “State of the nation/region” articles, while very entertaining often bare little resemblance to the average life lived in the place? I noticed since our financial crises here various articles in Vanity Fair, the Guardian, and other publications that have had factual errors or at the very least had unusual perceptions of how people are getting on. Often an article on how badly a place is doing will focus on a person who’s life is going badly, however a lot of the time they’ll be the same people for whom life was going badly when times were supposedly booming. I’m not saying people aren’t suffering in Britain, or Ireland, or wherever but I think it’s a deliberate journalistic device to make places seem worse (or better) than they really are. An Irish travelogue of the US called Cleveland “a sad old blues song”. I’m not saying Cleveland is perfect, but for all its coverage in the international press you’d think it was an unliveable hell. Detroit is probably the biggest victim of all this. Again I’m not saying it doesn’t have problems but a lot of couple day visiting journalists to these places make them out far, far, worse than they really are. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/79 "2011-11-02T00:14:50Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I remember when Britain was the “sick man of Europe”. That was until Thatcher took over #10 downing Street in 79. Have the Brits lost all that ground she gained for them ? No. The guy who wrote the article is a disingenuous bastard. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/80 "2011-11-02T00:22:15Z")
> [@drbhoneydew](#): > > There is, but it’s predominately in the Labour heartlands. Where I grew up, Labour were and still are guaranteed to get in just about no matter what - the village a couple of miles away was known as Little Moscow, so far left was the prevailing politics. This effectively means that Labour can “safely” ignore it. Up to a point anyway - they did lose a couple of local council seats to the Lib Dems a few years back simply because they couldn’t be arsed to do any campaigning round there. The Lib Dems have managed to royally cock up their own act since then so the seats have been regained. > > Anyway, Blair persuaded the party that the only way they were going to get into power after nearly two decades away from the big boys table was a shift rightwards and the resounding victory that followed convinced some that it was that rightward shift that had won the election, even though they could probably have won it by using a picture of John Prescott’s bottom as the campaign literature that year. It is of great regret that John Smith died when he did as, in general, his approach was more of a modernised leftist agenda than Blair’s cynical shift rightwards. Labour seem to be shifting back a touch leftward again, but Blair had taken them so far to the right that it will probably take a good couple of elections before they can be anything like left wing again and avoid accusations of dangerously jerking to the left in the media. > > Somewhat ironically, I say all this having never voted Labour - and I can be so left wing at times that Arthur Scargill looks like a moderate. Bizarrely, the Greens would probably get my vote on their **non-environmental** policies if they actually put up a candidate round here. Not that they’d get in, but one can but try. Son, what **yew** need is proportional representation! Get **on** with it! Push for it! Demand it! Make the **the** issue every election! **Get** it! Then maybe some **Americans** will finally get the idea! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610.md?page=5)