# British Dopers, are things in the UK as bad as this Harper's article says they are? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610 "2011-10-24T06:56:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/101 "2011-11-03T01:46:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And, BTW, and relevant to the thread, who would you say is better/worse off these days, the UK or the ROI? And how and why, etc.? (Maybe whichever is worse off could learn some lessons from the other.) The UK is way richer, has roughly 12 times the population, is more powerful economically and politically, and more diverse than Ireland, and as such has more resources on hand to solve its own problems. > [@](#): > > How do you like the results? The Republic of Ireland has lots of parties that have some relevance on a national level. Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Sinn Féin, and The Labour Party are all major parties with a Fine Gael/Labour coalition currently in power. There are also smaller parties like the Socialist Party and the Green Party (which due to a coalition with FF was part of the government of Ireland in our darkest recent days) that sometimes have TDs (MPs). However, for much of the existence of the state Fianna Fáil has been running the country almost as if we were a single party state. For about 75% of the time this state has existed Fianna Fáil has been in power. They recently received a drubbing as they’re held responsible for the cronyism and incompetence that has contributed to our various fiscal woes. This last election also brought in numerous independent TDs including colourful characters like [Mick Wallace](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Wallace) and [Ming Flanagan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_%27Ming%27_Flanagan). Proportional representation by the single transferable vote has the significant downside of promoting parish pump politicking. > [@](#): > > Intra-party electoral competition is inherent in PR-STV and this internal rivalry within parties has a corrosive and corrupting effect upon the entire political system > As a result, TDs are pressured by their constituents, and in turn pressure governments, to deliver ‘pork’ locally regardless of the national interest - with the result that the country has too many hospitals, too many airports, and too many third-level colleges, because every county wants one. There is a ‘tragedy of the commons’, with everyone recognising that constantly pandering to local interests produces nationally sub-optimal outcomes but no-one seeing any incentive to volunteer to be the one to forego some tranche of national spending. Under an electoral system that did not incorporate intra-party electoral competition, TDs could prioritise the national interest From: [http://www.tcd.ie/Political\_Science/staff/michael\_gallagher/IrishElectSys.php](http://www.tcd.ie/Political_Science/staff/michael_gallagher/IrishElectSys.php) ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/102 "2011-11-03T06:46:39Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Proportional representation by the single transferable vote has the significant downside of promoting parish pump politicking. Isn’t this as much to do with multi-seat constituencies as with PR-STV? Because parties routinely run as many candidates as they think have a chance of winning a seat, and then their candidates have to battle it out amongst each other. I’m not sure you’d get less of this if you took away the transfer system and instead gave the seats to the top x number of vote-getters. ---
**Author:** ![drbhoneydew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d78d45/32.png) [@drbhoneydew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drbhoneydew)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/103 "2011-11-03T11:01:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > BTW, what time do the pubs close in Britain? > > Maybe if closing time was later, a lot of your problems would fix themselves. 😉 If you believe the Daily Mail, never, since the 24hr licensing laws came in. In practice, it’s still round 11-11:30-ish in the evening in England for most pubs. One of the great things about studying north of the border in Scotland back in the 90s was the 3am closing for a not insignificant number of pubs 🙂 It was quite jarring coming back and _really_ fancying a pint at about midnight. Of course, unregulated drinking times could well be the source of many of our problems, as the legislators have long reserved certain privileges [in their workplace](http://londonist.com/2010/03/alternative_pub_crawls_the_houses_o.php) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/104 "2011-11-03T17:13:29Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I live in the same country as you, with the same Polish immigrants, yet my experience is diametrically opposite to yours. I contend you’re simply relaying what you read in the Daily Mail rather than actually providing us any real knowledge based on experience (as usual). As a civil servant in your particular job I’d say that your actual first hand experience of East European labour at work, and for that matter out of work is minimal to non existant. My experience with E.European migrant labour (not just Polish), both in and out of work is extensive and in depth, and that is what I base my opinions on. Not on what I read in the paper, not on what I see on t.v., not on my political opinions, and certainly not on wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/105 "2011-11-03T17:21:58Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Mine too. Those “unattached men” seemed to come with an awful lot of wives and children - the news was full of stories about how the Catholic churches and local schools and doctor’s surgeries in areas where the Polish immigrants were clustered were being overwhelmed by **families**. Maybe the gangmasters hired them too? I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of E.Europeans working in the U.K. construction industry are unattached males, in fact I have never ever met one who’s brought his family with him. As they are not here for the long term there would be no point, whatever you’ve read in the Daily Mail, or what things SEEM to be to you, or what you’d like to believe, which some might think you are basing your opinions on. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/106 "2011-11-03T20:45:14Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I believe that in New Zealand, party lists are used only to “top off” proportional representation after the winner-takes-all districts are decided. Same deal in Germany; half the seats in the Bundestag are determined by party lists, the other half come from single-member constituencies like in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/107 "2011-11-03T22:03:01Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > As a Brit who’s been living in the states for a while (but gets back pretty regularly), I’d say its mainly exaggeration, or rather ridiculous extrapolation (Britains broken because the airports shutdown in the snow, since when has Britain NOT shut down in the snow ?). > > In particular I’d say there is no where in Britain (or indeed the “western” world) that is as “broken” as the “broken” bits of the US. I’ve lived in some sketchy bits of the UK (Longsight in Manchester. and Bermondsey in London), and there is _nothing_ to compare to some of the blighted urban areas of the US (Bits of Oakland, the Tenderloin region of the San Fran, or downtown LA come to mind). I’m from the central US, & any public health system at all would be an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/108 "2011-11-04T23:53:09Z")
> [@drbhoneydew](#): > > Point me in the direction of somewhere that uses PR without a party list system and I may change my view. Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/109 "2011-11-04T23:59:17Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > As a civil servant in your particular job I’d say that your actual first hand experience of East European labour at work, and for that matter out of work is minimal to non existant. I just had a team of Poles refurbish my kitchen, one of whom lives here WITH HIS FAMILY. What has my profession got to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/110 "2011-11-05T15:10:31Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I just had a team of Poles refurbish my kitchen, one of whom lives here WITH HIS FAMILY. > > What has my profession got to do with anything? Obviously, you’re too middle class and too non-racist to understand what only _real_ Britons can understand about those awful foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/111 "2011-11-05T18:59:34Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Israel. Believe me, we most certainly have party lists. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/112 "2011-11-06T01:17:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Obviously, you’re too middle class and too non-racist to understand what only _real_ Britons can understand about those awful foreigners. Otherwise known as no true Englishman. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/113 "2011-11-06T01:43:43Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Otherwise known as no true Englishman. 🙂 Well, you know, there’s a Polish couple live in the flat above mine. With a toddler. In Scotland. Help. Am I really not a True Scotsman any more? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/114 "2011-11-06T01:49:57Z")
Therefore, neither England nor Scotland exists. Q. E. D. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/115 "2011-11-06T04:06:51Z")
Um, most of the Eastern European immigrants I’ve known (both by teaching EFL and because of where I live) have actually been young and childless. It’s much easier to emigrate - particularly when it’s intended to be a temporary relocation, though it doesn’t always turnout that way - when you’re young and childless, so it’d be kinda weird if that weren’t the case. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/116 "2011-11-06T09:07:54Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Therefore, neither England nor Scotland exists. Q. E. D. [We’ll add them to the list.](http://zapatopi.net/belgium/) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/117 "2011-11-08T18:02:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Obviously, you’re too middle class and too non-racist to understand what only _real_ Britons can understand about those awful foreigners. I don’t think that there are many E.Europeans working for the Civil Service, the ones that I’ve met are puting it mildly, homophobic, and as catholics they tend not to be overly well disposed towards Satanists, even those of \*\*ILLUMANUS \*\*s variety so it is highly unlikely that he has had much, if any contact with them, either at work or socially. I was not having a dig at him, merely stating a fact. It would be for the best for many people if the elephant in the room went unnoticed, the previous government made a hideous error of judgement based on terminally incorrect advice by the Civil Service who’s projection of economic migrants from Eastern Europe was forecast in thousands. (Which makes the five million plus legal migrants numbered in the last census a little hard to sweep under the carpet. Not all of these migrants were from E.E. or of working age , but still a pretty significant percentage of a population of sixty million, and of course H.M.G. has literally NO idea of how many illegals are in the country) And of course the present government has no idea what solution there is if any for what is an increasingly serious problem. So they prefer to not mention it in the vain hope that people won’t notice. As I say I’m totally in favour of the E.C. and can’t think of a viable remedy myself but that doesn’t help the poor sods who can’t get work, or if they ARE lucky enough to find some, its temporary and with de facto almost Victorian working rights of employment. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/118 "2011-11-08T18:10:52Z")
This doesn’t sound like an “immigration” problem to me. It sounds like an “employment law” problem. The free movement of labor allows people to seek work where work is available and is generally beneficial to labor, especially when there is already free movement of capital. If the United Kingdom is going to be in an economic and political union with Poland, there is no sensible way to insist that out-of-work Poles have to stay put and starve instead of migrating to England where there is apparently employment available. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/119 "2011-11-08T20:37:30Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I don’t think that there are many E.Europeans working for the Civil Service… Shows what you know - I’ve worked with quite a few. > [@](#): > > …the ones that I’ve met are puting it mildly, homophobic, and as catholics they tend not to be overly well disposed towards Satanists, even those of \*\*ILLUMANUS \*\*s variety so it is highly unlikely that he has had much, if any contact with them, either at work or socially. I… I just don’t know what I’m supposed to say to this. Once more, for the record, I don’t look like [this](http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=satanist&num=10&um=1&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=947&tbm=isch&tbnid=BIkOOIjVEP2TmM:&imgrefurl=http://whiskeyfuneral.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/satanic-panic-in-russia/&docid=Y1zTeoRrUp9n0M&imgurl=http://whiskeyfuneral.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/satanizm_satanist1.jpg&w=450&h=350&ei=k5K5TpKLD4KX8gPS3MDEBw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=444&vpy=149&dur=52&hovh=198&hovw=255&tx=101&ty=88&sig=111852054870047998263&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=137&tbnw=170&start=0&ndsp=55&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0), nor do I discuss my philosophical or religious beliefs with people I don’t know so that’s completely irrelevant to my relationship with poles, a good number of which I’ve counted as friends. So stop telling me what I know and what I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610/120 "2011-11-09T16:30:24Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Shows what you know - I’ve worked with quite a few. I… I just don’t know what I’m supposed to say to this. Once more, for the record, I don’t look like [this](http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=satanist&num=10&um=1&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=947&tbm=isch&tbnid=BIkOOIjVEP2TmM:&imgrefurl=http://whiskeyfuneral.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/satanic-panic-in-russia/&docid=Y1zTeoRrUp9n0M&imgurl=http://whiskeyfuneral.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/satanizm_satanist1.jpg&w=450&h=350&ei=k5K5TpKLD4KX8gPS3MDEBw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=444&vpy=149&dur=52&hovh=198&hovw=255&tx=101&ty=88&sig=111852054870047998263&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=137&tbnw=170&start=0&ndsp=55&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0), nor do I discuss my philosophical or religious beliefs with people I don’t know so that’s completely irrelevant to my relationship with poles, a good number of which I’ve counted as friends. > > So stop telling me what I know and what I don’t know. But you DO discuss your philisophical/religious beliefs etc.with people that you don’t know. You’ve done so on these very boards, how else would I know about your sexuality, Satanism, and for that matter your job ? And if you have indeed counted many Poles amongst your friends then I’m sure you must at some stage discussed those subjects with them. If people withold fundamental information about themselves with someone else then that doesn’t indicate friendship in most peoples eyes, but at best aquaintenceship. (And not a very close aquaintenceship at that) Personally I believe that it’d be a very boring world if everyone was the same,and people like yourself are a breath of fresh air. But I stand corrected, though I must admit to being just a little bit surprised. In case anyone thinks that my opinions are based on xenophobia rather then realism, I’ll just mention that yes, I too have not just Polish, but friends of many different nationalities. And by friends I mean good mates who I drink with, (It would be very difficult not to in my situation) not friends in the liberal, patronising ,“I always say good morning to them and have a chat about the weather” sense . And no I don’t blame them for taking advantage of employment opportunities in the U.K., they’re only human like the rest of us. But my personal feelings don’t alter the fact that that cheap migrant labour, often with false qualifications, and who are prepared to work without basic working welfare provisions, or obey Health and Safety legislation, that and who spend the barest minimum in our economy, are a serious threat to that very economy, and have set back working conditions for the ordinary person by at the very least decades. If of course that person can get a job in the first place. If employment conditions were a level playing field then it would be a very different kettle of fish, but they aren’t and there doesn’t seem to be any liklihood of it anytime in the future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-are-things-in-the-uk-as-bad-as-this-harpers-article-says-they-are/600610.md?page=7)