# British Dopers: Word usage question **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 5, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959 "2013-04-05T21:56:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/1 "2013-04-05T21:56:18Z")
So I’m editing my latest novel, and one of my characters is British. He’s an upper-class academic-type mage but not at all “posh” or old-fashioned. Mid-thirties. At one point I have him referring to someone as a “Nice chap” to someone else. I’m wondering if real Brits still use “chap,” though, and a little Googling leads me to believe that they really don’t unless they’re quite a bit older than my character. It’s pretty clear that nobody uses it to refer to people directly (“I say, old chap!”) but less clear about third-person usage. I’m thinking a good synonym would be “bloke” but that sounds kind of lower-class for my mage. Is “bloke” more of an age thing (he’d use it because he’s young, even though he went to boarding schools and grew up relatively wealthy) or more of a social class thing? Or am I overthinking this? I just don’t want him to use language that you only find on British sitcoms. I usually have a pretty good ear for British English but this one’s stumping me. What say you, British chaps and chappettes? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/2 "2013-04-05T22:39:33Z")
‘Bloke’ is lower-class unless used ironically, or carelessly in a flippant way. ‘Chap’ is slightly old-fashioned, but can be used without thought easily. ‘Nice chap’ is just fine, provided it flows with the speech — eg: not said heavily or markedly. Oddly, although chap was an upperclass affectation from the 19th century on, it was also used extensively by the lower classes in the North of England as a matter of course. ‘Fellow’, and ‘lad’ ( or ‘lass’ ) are uncommon. Misfortunately, loads of people have adapted ‘mate’ as an endearment. Which is weird coming from one woman to another. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/3 "2013-04-05T22:49:48Z")
I think someone of that age would say “nice guy”, not “chap”. “Chap” is old-fashioned. It did go through a brief, and hopefully over, ironic revival phase. I think it is now back to being simply old-fashioned. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/4 "2013-04-05T22:50:05Z")
Brit here. I can imagine your character using “nice chap” but it would be somewhat ironic “nice chap but…” A mid-thirties academic referring to someone as a nice chap is probably damning with faint praise if that is the best you can say of them. What’s the context? We might come up with a better choice if you give us some background and what your mage is trying to express. ETA Backing up **Claverhouse** and **Ximenean** , a lot depends on inflection as to how sincere it is as a compliment and, yes, “nice guy” would be more usual for a many Brits under the age of 70! ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/5 "2013-04-05T23:03:22Z")
Here’s the line from the context I’m referring to (I realized when I found the actual quote it’s ‘smart’ not ‘nice,’ but that shouldn’t matter. _“Remember I told you Daphne met someone else and we broke it off? He was the someone else. I suppose it was inevitable, really, with them working so closely together and me still based in England at that point. I met him once. Smart chap. Boring, but smart.”_ I searched the whole manuscript and he uses the word four times–the other three are referring specifically to somebody (“that chap \”, or “chap named \.”) It’s always in passing and he never makes a big affectation out of it. He also uses “bloke” once, in the context of “you don’t want an old bloke like me tagging along” with a couple of younger friends. I’m not sure I’m comfortable with that–I might just go with “old guy” or “old fart.” Thanks for the assistance! ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/6 "2013-04-05T23:15:56Z")
He wouldn’t say “smart”, unless he were tailoring his English to an American listener. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/7 "2013-04-05T23:22:17Z")
Agreed. Bright not smart but otherwise chap actually sounds ok to me in this context. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/8 "2013-04-05T23:26:00Z")
Oh, and ‘bloke’ is ok in this sort of jokey situation. Old fart isn’t right for a guy in his 30s and old guy is not facetious enough. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/9 "2013-04-05T23:36:44Z")
Agree with my fellow Brits that “bright chap” seems to fit the bill perfectly here. “Bloke” is not classy enough and “guy” has slightly American overtones (to my ear, anyway). But I disagree on the use of “old fart” and would think that fits better into the context than “old bloke” - I would say it’s perfectly reasonable for a guy in his 30s to refer to himself as an “old fart” compared with people in their twenties (or younger). Hell, I’m 27 and I feel like an old fart compared with the 22- and 23-year-olds I work with! ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/10 "2013-04-05T23:40:04Z")
Excellent, thanks! He _is_ actually talking to an American audience and has spent a fair bit of time in America, but I like “bright” better. I’ll leave “chap” and change “smart” to “bright.” You guys are great. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/11 "2013-04-05T23:43:46Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > Agree with my fellow Brits that “bright chap” seems to fit the bill perfectly here. “Bloke” is not classy enough and “guy” has slightly American overtones (to my ear, anyway). But I disagree on the use of “old fart” and would think that fits better into the context than “old bloke” - I would say it’s perfectly reasonable for a guy in his 30s to refer to himself as an “old fart” compared with people in their twenties (or younger). Hell, I’m 27 and I feel like an old fart compared with the 22- and 23-year-olds I work with! Exactly. The Brit in question is 36, and his friends are 25 and 18. He’s also a professional (professor of Occult Studies at Stanford in addition to being a fully trained mage) while his two friends are still trying to figure out what they want to do with themselves, so he definitely feels older than them and not just chronologically. If he used “old fart” it would be somewhat sarcastically, but with a kernel of truth. They tire him out sometimes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/12 "2013-04-05T23:44:09Z")
I bow to Dead Cat’s greater knowledge! At my age 35, 30, 25, or 20 all look young 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/13 "2013-04-06T01:26:30Z")
Not British, too influenced by Wodehouse, so probably not modern. Wonder if “Sort” or Good Sort" is in or out. > [@Claverhouse](#): > > ‘Bloke’ is lower-class unless used ironically, or carelessly in a flippant way. ‘Chap’ is slightly old-fashioned, but can be used without thought easily. ‘Nice chap’ is just fine, provided it flows with the speech — eg: not said heavily or markedly. > > Oddly, although chap was an upperclass affectation from the 19th century on, it was also used extensively by the lower classes in the North of England as a matter of course. > ‘Fellow’, and ‘lad’ ( or ‘lass’ ) are uncommon. Misfortunately, loads of people have adapted ‘mate’ as an endearment. Which is weird coming from one woman to another. Mostly posted to say I love “misfortunately.” ---
**Author:** ![Charley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/97f17d/32.png) [@Charley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charley)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/14 "2013-04-06T09:09:56Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > Not British, too influenced by Wodehouse, so probably not modern. Wonder if “Sort” or Good Sort" is in or out. Nah, you’ve totally lifted ‘sort’ from Wodehouse. Never in a million years - or at least in the last 40 :). ETA: OP, agree with your slightly revised version. And ‘old fart’ or ‘old bloke’ would both work IMO. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/15 "2013-04-07T11:43:28Z")
I’d go with ‘lad’ myself. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/16 "2013-04-07T13:16:00Z")
I think I’d try “sod” if it was my own writing. Or is that too dismissive? ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/17 "2013-04-07T13:28:24Z")
I would have used “clever chap” but I’m not English. And I used the term “good sort” a few days ago and was told I was showing my age ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/18 "2013-04-07T14:41:42Z")
Chap’s perfectly fine. And it should be “clever chap” unless the person is significantly younger. That’s assuming you’re referring to intellect. And the distaff version of _chap_ is _chappess(es)_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/19 "2013-04-07T23:55:03Z")
From _Notting Hill_: Bernie: “I see friends from university – clever chaps – been in the business longer than you – they’re scraping by on seven, eight thousand a year”. (Kiwi myself, not British, but “clever chap” sounds appropriate and euphonious fwiw). ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959/20 "2013-04-08T00:08:05Z")
Yeah, but… Maybe I’m making an inaccurate distinction, but “clever” to me implies something different than “bright.” The guy that my mage is referring to is not what you’d call a quick thinker–he’s very intelligent, but kind of a wonk. That’s the mage’s point: he’s saying that the guy is smart but boring. So I think I’m gonna stick with “bright” rather than “clever” in this particular context. Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-dopers-word-usage-question/654959.md?page=2)