# British Double Whammy for Guantanamo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2006, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926 "2006-02-17T08:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/1 "2006-02-17T08:25:01Z")
> **[Judge's anger at US torture](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/feb/17/politics.world)** > > Stinging comments come as America dismisses UN report on Guantánamo. "A high court judge yesterday delivered a stinging attack on America, saying its idea of what constituted torture was out of step with that of “most civilised nations”. The criticism, directed at the Bush administration’s approach to human rights, was made by Mr Justice Collins during a hearing over the refusal by ministers to request the release of three British residents held at Guantánamo Bay. The judge said: “America’s idea of what is torture is not the same as ours and does not appear to coincide with that of most civilised nations.” He made his comments, he said, after learning of the UN report that said Guantánamo should be shut down without delay because torture was still being carried out there." And on Question Time last night, Peter Hain, a government minister said that he believed Guantanamo should never have been opened and should be closed as soon as possible. He also said that he believed that Tony Blair felt the same. How much longer can the British Government remain publicly silent about human rights abuses at Guantanamo now that the above has been said and even Kofi Annan has called for the closure of the facility. If the government came out forcefully and honestly about its beliefs about Guantanamo it would strip away one of the fig leaves available to the US. Is this going to happen. How will history judge the British Government when ICRC records are released and they show that the US Human Rights abuses in Guantanamo were massive and hidden. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/2 "2006-02-17T11:36:29Z")
I certainly wouldn’t put the US in the set of “most civilised nations” _anyway_, for all kinds of reasons. Richest, most culturally homogenous, most militarily powerful, yes. But _civilised_? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/3 "2006-02-17T12:21:02Z")
I agree with both assessments, but I don’t think the Administration nor its supporters will care. I think the Blair government can remain silent fairly long, so long as it isn’t brought up during PM Questions - in fact, I suspect that’s what they are going to do. If it’s brought up, they’ll say something like, “we share the honorable gentleman’s concerns and obviously we’re disturbed by torture allegations and are looking into the matter.” I don’t know why the ICRC records would show anything up, since AFAIK, they don’t have access to most of the site. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/4 "2006-02-17T12:22:13Z")
Oh yes, I forgot. A big :rolleyes: to **SentientMeat** because of the forum. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/5 "2006-02-17T12:47:35Z")
Well, OK, to stretch my IMHO’s into a Debate, I think an important element in all of this is this phrase “civilised nations”, and whether the US has (or even _desires_) membership of such a set. The OP suggests that a senior British justice labelling the US as _outside_ the set of civilised nations in this instance is a “whammy”. But is it really? What if the US administration (and indeed electorate) not only didn’t give a hoot what the British government thinks (which is pretty self-evident, IMO) but actually didn’t **care** any more about being _civilised_? If that were the case, its entire relationship with the rest of the industrialised democratic world would seriously have to be examined. What would be the _point_, for example, of holding summit after summit on issues of mutual concern if it was perfectly clear from the outset that the US would only ever _solely_ act in its own interest? One might even argue that including the US in the debate at all only served to delay and water down what might otherwise be accomplished by the other nations alone had the US never even turned up. In short, if the US genuinely do not care for the opinions of “other civilised nations”, might it be best not to invite them to say so? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/6 "2006-02-17T13:05:54Z")
Why the stab at the US being civilized or not, **SentientMeat** & **Pjen**? I thought the latest scandal was about some _Britons_ torturing prisoners? [http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L14784786.htm](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L14784786.htm) ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/7 "2006-02-17T13:14:45Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Why the stab at the US being civilized or not, **SentientMeat** & **Pjen**? > > I thought the latest scandal was about some _Britons_ torturing prisoners? > > [Humanitarian | Thomson Reuters Foundation News](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L14784786.htm) I don’t want to speak for them but I’m sure both of them would have no problems whatsoever in pointing out why Britain is also failing in it’s responsibilities. Do you think you can’t criticise a country for its actions just because your country is making the same mistakes? This thread is about the US and UN reactions to GITMO. I sure the two posters would have something to say in a thread about the latest video of British soldiers abusing Iraqis. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/8 "2006-02-17T13:19:25Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > This thread is about the US and UN reactions to GITMO. I sure the two posters would have something to say in a thread about the latest video of British soldiers abusing Iraqis. This thread was turning out to be about the civilized US. I’d like to see the two posters having something to say in a thread about the civilized UK. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/9 "2006-02-17T13:19:26Z")
It’s not ‘not caring’ for the opinions of other ‘civilised nations’. It is a positive and considered decision to spite those opinions. The Guantanamo policy serves the pleasure of the mute and slavering horde that has twice drooled and spat its assent to the current administration. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/10 "2006-02-17T13:22:14Z")
> [@gum](#): > > I thought the latest scandal was about some Britons torturing prisoners? Which I absolutely agree makes the UK less civilised, **gum**. But note that the UK government, nor any significant potrion of its electorate, is _defending_ the right to abuse the human rights of prisoners. It is not Abu Ghraib which Justice Collins attacked (assuming that they were the actions of individuals rather than policy), it was Guantanamo. It is a fallacy typical of US conservatism to draw equivalence between things which are _clearly_ distinct in this way. If the UK were operating such a camp in, say, Ireland, I would advocate UN sanctions against the UK until it started behaving “like other civilised nations”. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/11 "2006-02-17T13:23:22Z")
> [@gum](#): > > This thread was turning out to be about the civilized US. > > I’d like to see the two posters having something to say in a thread about the civilized UK. To tell you the truth for some reason I thought I was reading the other GD thread "\*\* UN to U.S.: Shut down Guantanamo Bay prison now!\*\* which is why I said this thread is about UN and US. Your point about Britain makes more sense than I thought in did since I was incorrect about the thread I was in. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/12 "2006-02-17T13:41:19Z")
That’s okay. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/13 "2006-02-17T13:58:01Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I certainly wouldn’t put the US in the set of “most civilised nations” _anyway_, for all kinds of reasons. Ever heard of a baseball riot? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/14 "2006-02-17T14:28:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Ever heard of a baseball riot? 😉 Heh - the equivalent would actually be a _cricket_ riot, of which we have very few. 🙂 As for _soccer_ riots, we haven’t had a proper one of them for many years (and the [US](http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,1660884,00.html) isn’t far behind on that score either). But all this _tu quoque_-ing is by the by. I will object to British authoritarianism wherever I can. But this _government policy_ of arbitrary imprisonment **for 5 years** and the torture inflicted on such prisoners is what Justice Collins is talking about here, and it shows that the US is truly at odds with most civilised nations in this respect. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/15 "2006-02-17T14:48:31Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > In short, if the US genuinely do not care for the opinions of “other civilised nations”, might it be best not to invite them to say so? I agree. What’s the point of talking if people are just going to be so barbarous and uncivilized as to disagree? Frightful. I think I might swoon at the very thought. Perhaps one of the servants can fetch me a silken pillow upon which to rest my wise, swollen head. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/16 "2006-02-17T14:55:12Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#): > > What’s the point of talking if people are just going to be so barbarous and uncivilized as to disagree? On the subject of torture and arbitrary detention? I’m really not sure whether civilisation can consider these _negotiable_, really. At the very least, any country must certainly consider withdrawing from the [charter](http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/) they signed _promising_ not to ‘disagree’ in this way. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/17 "2006-02-17T15:20:35Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > I don’t know why the ICRC records would show anything up, since AFAIK, they don’t have access to most of the site. I believe that the ICRC have had access to the whole site- it was one of the thing necessary for the US Govt to say that althought the detainees were not being accorded POW status, they were being treated in accord with the Geneva Conventions. I will look for a cite but would ask you to provide a counter cite that the ICRC have been excluded from access to ‘most of the site’. You may be confusing this with access by others than the ICRC. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/18 "2006-02-17T15:30:53Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Why the stab at the US being civilized or not, **SentientMeat** & **Pjen**? > > I thought the latest scandal was about some _Britons_ torturing prisoners? > > [Humanitarian | Thomson Reuters Foundation News](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L14784786.htm) I have started a separate thread about that very issue together with the latest torture pictures from Abu Ghraib: > **[How (Un)Lucky that Military Abuse in Iraq has always been photographed and...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=359221)** > > With the prisoner abuse Abu Ghraib surfacing again (soon after the second set pictures of British soldiers beating and otherwise maltreating Iraqi civilians surfaced) I was struck by the common response that in all cases it was just a few bad... However, I would point out that two cases were disimilar in the extreme. I in no way condone the actions of the British soldiers. However, their actions were similar to a nasty street fight after a football match- hitting with staves, nutting, kicking in the balls- certainly bad enough. Abu Ghraib by contrast showed extreme humiliation, forced masturbation, attack dogs, threatened genital torture, sexual humiliation, forced nudity and forced sex acts between men, restraint in uncomfortable positions apparently leading to loss of consciousness, torture leading to considerable blood loss, and the exhibition of corpses in lewd and mock-humorous poses. The British troups engaged in a quick and inexcusable act of physical revenge on people who probably had been abusing them a few moments before (still totally unacceptable). The US transgressions took place in a secured environment over a considerable period of time and seem to mimic ‘skills’ learned and developed in Gitmos by Intelligence Officers (there’s an Oxymoron). Both events bad. One event considerably worse than the other. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/19 "2006-02-17T15:39:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Ever heard of a baseball riot? 😉 [As a matter of fact, yes,](http://www.cardinalshistory.com/1934.htm) in game 7 of the 1934 World Series no less. > [@](#): > > In the top of the sixth, Medwick tripled in another run, and when Joe slid into third the Tigers’ Marv Owen thought it was with too much enthusiasm and he and Medwick squared off. The combatants were quickly separated, but when Joe [Medwick] went out to take his left-field position in the bottom of the inning he found himself the target of the frustrated bleacher fans, who seemed to have been waiting to erupt. They took dead aim at Joe with fruit, vegetables, soda pop bottles, and any other missile that would fly. As soon as stadium personnel cleaned up one mess, another came flying out. > > “I don’t know where they were getting all that stuff from,” Charlie Gehringer said. “It was like they were backing produce trucks up to the gate and supplying everybody.” > > With the game unable to continue, Commissioner Landis summoned Medwick, Frisch, and the umpires to his box. There a decision was made to remove Joe from the game ‘to protect the player from injury and permit the game to continue.’ ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/20 "2006-02-17T15:42:04Z")
> [@gum](#): > > This thread was turning out to be about the civilized US. > > I’d like to see the two posters having something to say in a thread about the civilized UK. The UK is far from perfect- I’m the first to criticise. However, the UK: Respects and upholds the Geneva Convention Signed up for the International Criminal Court Takes full cognisance of the feelings and desires of other nations. Has a human rights system that is not open to easy abuse by the executive. Has a judiciary that is fully independent of the executive and the legislature with preferment by skill and ability rather than by political stance. Has all of its laws reviewed easily by an outside body that informs us whether we are in accord with latest good practice on Human Rights. Has abolished Capital Punishment Had not, until the Iraq war, engaged in offensive warfare for over half a century. Does not Use or Condone Torture Does not run Guantanamo Does not have a Patriot Act (Yet) Works successfully in voluntary and mutual alliances with other countries with due regard to the rights of other countries. Does not ‘render’ people to be tortured in third world dungeons. Works cooperatively with the UN and other international bodies. and even allows us to smoke Cuban cigars :p. All of the above together, I believe, make the UK considerably more civilized than the US. Debate? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926.md?page=2)