# British Double Whammy for Guantanamo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2006, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926 "2006-02-17T08:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/21 "2006-02-17T15:43:52Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > On the subject of torture and arbitrary detention? I’m really not sure whether civilisation can consider these negotiable, really. At the very least, any country must certainly consider withdrawing from the charter they signed promising not to ‘disagree’ in this way. Yes, exactly! We shan’t invite the slavering American hordes to our tea. Nor the Russians. They’ve gulags, you know. Nor the Chinese, as not only do they torture people in an unacceptable manner but they know nothing of tea anyway. Don’t even get me started on Africa or Southeast Asia. These are not civilized persons with whom we may consort, and dialogue over such things is a waste of time as they do not agree with us. Negotiations and summits will proceed much more smoothly once three-quarters of the world’s population is no longer represented, and once we’ve alienated a majority of the UN Security Council. Besides, they all have the audacity to pursue interests without our august permission. Varlets, the lot of them. Goodness, I’m swooning again. Where is Mummy’s serving lad, the one with palm frond? Hurry now, don’t make me clap twice. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/22 "2006-02-17T15:45:38Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I will look for a cite but would ask you to provide a counter cite that the ICRC have been excluded from access to ‘most of the site’. You may be confusing this with access by others than the ICRC. No need for a cite. A quick Google let’s me know you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/23 "2006-02-17T15:55:13Z")
Well, I’m glad you recognise the moral bankruptcy of the company you keep by advocating arbitrary detention, **Grossbottom**. Again, if the US _doesn’t care_ whether it is “civilised” or not then yes, perhaps they _ought_ to be treated like other Asian or African pariahs. Just don’t be surprised when people smirk at the phrase ‘Leader of the Free World’. And _certainly_ don’t be suprised when you say that terrorism is something all civilised nations must work to eradicate and you are looked askance. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/24 "2006-02-17T16:42:42Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Well, I’m glad you recognise the moral bankruptcy of the company you keep by advocating arbitrary detention, Grossbottom. My lord, I’ve advocated nothing of the sort! I’ve merely agreed overwhelmingly with your suggestion that we not **bother** to discuss certain things with people who don’t already agree with us. It’s a wondrous idea! I truly mean this, what possible benefit could there be to dialogue with persons who don’t already hold the exact same positions that we do? Now that, **that** I say, is diplomacy. Not to be confused with unilateralism, which only the Americans do. And they do it all the time! Beastly, vile creatures. The money we’ll save on embassies alone will buy me a new pony, a crate full of monocles and a positive gaggle of servants armed with silken pillows upon which I may faint with great frequency, whenever the merest whiff of colonial intransigence should cross my nose. I say, I shall have to Mummy’s palm frond boy home to fetch my handkerchiefs! ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/25 "2006-02-17T16:49:29Z")
Rather, I shall have to **send** Mummy’s boy home to fetch the handkerchiefs. You can see how distraught I am over the idea of dialogue with those who haven’t already agreed with me? My hands are positively shaking with outrage. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/26 "2006-02-17T16:56:45Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The UK is far from perfect- I’m the first to criticise. > > However, the UK: > > Respects and upholds the Geneva Convention > Takes full cognisance of the feelings and desires of other nations. > Has all of its laws reviewed easily by an outside body that informs us whether we are in accord with latest good practice on Human Rights. > > Has abolished Capital Punishment > > Had not, until the Iraq war, engaged in offensive warfare for over half a century. > > Does not Use or Condone Torture > > Does not ‘render’ people to be tortured in third world dungeons. > > Works cooperatively with the UN and other international bodies. 1. So does the USA. Remeber, it’s the ICRC that sez otherwise. Although they have been critical of the USA, I beleive we have fixed what they asked for. 2. meaningless PC goobeldy-gook 3. What Outside body would that be? :dubious: 4. Nope, wrong. GB still allows the DP for Treason. Don’t know your own countries laws very well, do you? 5. Falkland Islands. Debatable over who has the rightful claim to them, you know. Argentina certainly thinks you enegaged in an offensive war there. 6. Nor does the USA. But you _do_ allow your soldiers to beat children, right? 7. Nor does the USA. 8. So does the USA. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/27 "2006-02-17T16:58:54Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#): > > My lord, I’ve advocated nothing of the sort! I’ve merely agreed overwhelmingly with your suggestion that we not **bother** to discuss certain things with people who don’t already agree with us. It’s a wondrous idea! I truly mean this, what possible benefit could there be to dialogue with persons who don’t already hold the exact same positions that we do? Now that, **that** I say, is diplomacy. > > Not to be confused with unilateralism, which only the Americans do. And they do it all the time! Beastly, vile creatures. > > The money we’ll save on embassies alone will buy me a new pony, a crate full of monocles and a positive gaggle of servants armed with silken pillows upon which I may faint with great frequency, whenever the merest whiff of colonial intransigence should cross my nose. I say, I shall have to Mummy’s palm frond boy home to fetch my handkerchiefs! Well, to indulge in some of your own idiotic mockery, why yes! Let us again have open season on torture and imprisonment at a whim! Let us sit down and in good faith _debate_ whether it is civilised to subject our fellows to five years of brutality and loss of liberty, all because we don’t like their faces! We could share a fine wine with old Saddam and complement him on his interrogation practices, now _de rigeur_ throughout our free democracy, while exchanging _bon mots_ upon the subject of how silly all this commitment to “human rights” is. Heck, a bit of suffering might even do these idle fops some good! So, a genuine _debate_ to be tabled at the next meeting of the General Assembly of the United Nations. **Resolution 1645** , set forth by the United States of America: _Torture and arbitrary imprisonment are civilised._ Good old Uncle Sam! ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/28 "2006-02-17T17:02:16Z")
> [@Dr Deth](#): > > 1. Nope, wrong. GB still allows the DP for Treason. Don’t know your own countries laws very well, do you? Not after the incorporation into UK law of the Human Rights Act in 1998. Do keep up. Just _where_ is the UK equivalent of Guantanamo, by the way? ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/29 "2006-02-17T17:22:36Z")
> [@Sentientmeat](#): > > Let us sit down and in good faith debate whether it is civilised to subject our fellows to five years of brutality and loss of liberty, all because we don’t like their faces! Heavens no, not good faith debate. Not when absurd overreaction and bizarre accusations of racism can serve to make our positions clear! With such techniques as those, reasoned debate can only put us at a disadvantage. And no doubt the great masses of the unwashed will be amazed at the effectiveness of our refined, civilised ways. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/30 "2006-02-17T17:26:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Abolition of the death penalty is a requirement for countries seeking EU membership. All candidate countries (see regular reports on the accession countries) have acceded to Protocol No. 6 to the European Convention on Human Rights, concerning the Abolition of the Death Penalty. In addition, EU Member States are all signatories to Protocol 13 to the ECHR, concerning the abolition of the death penalty in all circumstances, which was adopted in Vilnius in May 2002. This treaty explicitly bans the death penalty in all circumstances, including in war-time. [http://europa.eu.int/comm/external\_relations/human\_rights/adp/](http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/human_rights/adp/) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/31 "2006-02-17T17:31:46Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Not after the incorporation into UK law of the Human Rights Act in 1998. Do keep up. > > Just _where_ is the UK equivalent of Guantanamo, by the way? Well, since the UK isn’t a world power anymore, your few prisoners are kept at OUR Prison. \*Do keep up. \* The sun _has_ set on the British Empire. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/32 "2006-02-17T17:31:57Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#): > > Heavens no, not good faith debate. Not when absurd overreaction and bizarre accusations of racism can serve to make our positions clear! With such techniques as those, reasoned debate can only put us at a disadvantage. > > And no doubt the great masses of the unwashed will be amazed at the effectiveness of our refined, civilised ways. Congratualtions sir, you have outdone me. My mental gears simply crash at the irony of _you_ saying that _my_ debating methods are overreactive and make my position unclear. You, sir, are a wonder of hypocrisy to behold, and I doff my hat to your outstanding fluency in doublespeak. Ever the gentleman, I leave you the last word in the hope that you actually _say_ something. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/33 "2006-02-17T17:34:39Z")
> [@Dr Deth](#): > > Well, since the UK isn’t a world power anymore, your few prisoners are kept at OUR Prison. Do keep up. Run that by me again. The _British government_ are imprisoning people at a _US_ camp in _Cuba_? I would certainly like to keep up with this development, since they actively campaigned for British citizens to be _released_ due to an utter lack of evidence against them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/34 "2006-02-17T18:02:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Nor does the USA. Errmmm . . . Yes, the U.S. **does** “render” prisoners to be tortued in Third World dungeons, **DrDeth.** And this is not news to anybody any more. Don’t play dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/35 "2006-02-17T18:24:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. So does the USA. Remeber, it’s the ICRC that sez otherwise. Although they have been critical of the USA, I beleive we have fixed what they asked for. The ICRC has stated clearly that the US has not followed the GC in its treatment of prisoners. The ICRC is the competent authority. The USA disagrees and ignores the ICRC. > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. meaningless PC goobeldy-gook No, its to do with respecting other countries and working as a team- something the USA is recently piss poor at. > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. What Outside body would that be? :dubious: The European Court of Human Rights > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Nope, wrong. GB still allows the DP for Treason. Don’t know your own countries laws very well, do you? No. You are wrong. When we incorporated the ECHR into our law, the Treason provisions (not used since the forties) were scrapped. You don’t know our law very well do you? > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Falkland Islands. Debatable over who has the rightful claim to them, you know. Argentina certainly thinks you enegaged in an offensive war there. Whether the British occupation of the Falklands was fully legal or not, Argentina started a war of aggression by invading the islands. Whatever the final legal status of the land at question, the de facto owner of the islands (Britain) had the right to use warfare as a means of self defence. You do have a basic understanding of some law, don’t you? > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Nor does the USA. But you _do_ allow your soldiers to beat children, right? The USA does- see references to torture light and the US attempts to redefine torture outside of international conventions so as to bend the language to claims that water borading is not torture. As to UK troups beating riotous kids- that is indefensible and the people responsible are being actively pursued and will be punished according to the law. > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Nor does the USA. The USA denies it. The EC believes this to be true as does the British Government (it uses words that appear to deny this but do not actually do so.) There are clear statements from two separate people who were rendered and tortured abroad. Will provide cites if necessary. > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. So does the USA. Not in any recognizable manner to other states who respect the UN… You present ambassador was appointed because of his animous towards the UN. The USA regularly denounces any UN action which criticizes it. I know this is diffcult to understand and appreciate from an American perspective, but the US acts towards the UN like no other western country. I note your numbered replies missed the following: Signed up for the International Criminal Court Has a human rights system that is not open to easy abuse by the executive. Has a judiciary that is fully independent of the executive and the legislature with preferment by skill and ability rather than by political stance. Does not run Guantanamo Does not have a Patriot Act (Yet) Works successfully in voluntary and mutual alliances with other countries with due regard to the rights of other countries. and even allows us to smoke Cuban cigars . So I assume that you accept these markers of civilization. The ones you have challenged you are either demostrably wrong about: 1-5 or have failed to demonstrate that these are the case: 6-8. C- I’m afraid. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/36 "2006-02-17T18:28:24Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Has a judiciary that is fully independent of the executive and the legislature with preferment by skill and ability rather than by political stance. Hmm? How does one become a judge in the UK? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/37 "2006-02-17T18:39:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hmm? How does one become a judge in the UK? For Enland and Wales only: [http://www.dca.gov.uk/judicial/index.htm](http://www.dca.gov.uk/judicial/index.htm) The judicial appointments process must be of the highest standard, both in its efficiency and effectiveness, as the appointments it facilitates are of such importance. That is why we are continually reviewing the way that judicial appointments are made. For example, the Secretary of State and the Lord Chancellor has recently piloted and agreed the use of Assessment Centres in the selection procedure for appointments to Deputy District Judge and tribunal appointments. All interviews and assessment centres will now take place at Steel House. **PROCESS** **Consultation** For some competitions judges and members of the profession are automatically consulted about each applicants suitability for appointment against the competences or criteria for appointment. They will only make assessments of those candidates about whom they have sufficient recent knowledge of their work/experience. No one person’s view about a candidate, whether negative or positive, and however eminent that person may be, is decisive. For all competitions, applicants are asked to provide the names of between three and six people (nominated consultees) who have recent and substantial knowledge of their work experience in order that they can also be consulted for views as to the applicant’s suitability for appointment against the competences for appointment. For fee paid appointments except Recorders the consultation takes place after the sift and before the interviews, for all other appointments the consultation is completed prior to the sift. **Sifting of Applications** For appointments up to and including the level of Circuit Judge all applications received from applicants will be considered to form a shortlist of candidates who will be asked to attend a formal interview or assessment centre. The sifting panel consists of a serving judge of a relevant jurisdiction, a senior official representing the Department for Constitutional Affairs and a lay person. The panel considers each candidate’s application and self-assessment against the competencies for appointment, along with the written assessments received where these have been obtained prior to the sift. Taking into account the number of vacancies for the post concerned, a shortlist of successful candidates for interview is compiled. \*\*Interviews and Assessments \*\* Interviews are conducted by the same, or similarly constituted, panels. The panel members make their assessments by asking questions which further test how well each candidate demonstrates the criteria for appointment. The interview therefore provides a further opportunity for the candidate to demonstrate the qualities and skills needed to be a judge. **Judicial Appointments Panel** Each interview generally lasts about 45 minutes. The structure and questions asked depend on the appointment. There are not necessarily right or wrong answers to the majority of questions asked. The panel members are looking to see whether the candidate has sound instincts and the right approach to the sort of problems they might face when sitting. Some candidates have less actual experience of the particular jurisdiction than others and allowance is made for that. After the interview the candidate is rated against each of the competencies. Each member reaches an independent conclusion and then views are discussed and an overall assessment reached. The rating for each candidate takes account of the written assessments made against the competencies as well as the interview. A one-day assessment centre was piloted in Autumn 2002 as a replacement for the selection interview. The pilot competitions were Deputy District Judge (Civil), Deputy District Judge (Magistrates’ Courts) and Deputy Queen’s Bench Master. The assessment centre tested selected applicants in various exercises - such as role plays and written case studies as well as an interview. The pilot has been evaluated and this approach has been adopted for future Deputy District Judge competitions and has been further piloted in the appointment of Recorders and Fee Paid Chairmen of the Employment Tribunal. **Appointments** The successful candidates are those who best demonstrate that they meet the criteria during the whole of the selection procedure. First in their application forms, next in the light of the assessments obtained in the consultation process and finally in the interview or an assessment centre. The Lord Chancellor personally considers the applications of each candidate interviewed, before he makes his final decision, which is based on all the information available to him. **AND REVIEW** [http://www.cja.gov.uk/](http://www.cja.gov.uk/) The Commission is an independent body. It was set up in March 2001 to: ``` * Review the judicial and Queen's Counsel appointment procedures; and * Investigate complaints about the operation of those procedures. ``` The Commission makes an annual report to the Lord Chancellor, covering its work in the previous year. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/38 "2006-02-17T19:29:15Z")
Enough people in the US vote with their fear to influence policy. My evil exectuive branch has decided oversight is a hinderance. This is the case with Gitmo, domestic spying, energy policy, and pretty much everything else. They effectively saying “trust me” and not caring that nobody does. I try not to think about it too much. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/39 "2006-02-17T19:35:39Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > On the subject of torture and arbitrary detention? I’m really not sure whether civilisation can consider these _negotiable_, really. At the very least, any country must certainly consider withdrawing from the [charter](http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/) they signed _promising_ not to ‘disagree’ in this way. [Doctor, heal thyself.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3714864.stm) ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926/40 "2006-02-17T20:10:44Z")
> [@Dominic Mulligan](#): > > [Doctor, heal thyself.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3714864.stm) [Healed](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4338849.stm), as I advocated as soon as they were imprisoned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-double-whammy-for-guantanamo/344926.md?page=3)