# British English group grammar **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 24, 2007, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424 "2007-04-24T05:36:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/21 "2007-04-24T12:11:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \* **FDRE** : > For example ‘Arsenal is cr/p’ definitely sounds wrong. It certainly sounds wrong to me when referring to a team. If I heard ‘Chelsea are crap’ I would assume it was a reasoned judgement about the football team, if I heard ‘Chelsea is crap’ I would assume it was an absurd generalisation about an area of west London 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Martha\_Medea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@Martha\_Medea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martha_Medea)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/22 "2007-04-24T12:28:30Z")
I have to write and correct copy for publications where the house-style is US English and this is one of my stumbling blocks. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/23 "2007-04-24T14:33:01Z")
Completely off-topic, but since this thread will have attracted a swarm of grammarians, I thought [this](https://www.goodstorm.com/item/conscious/dont_complain_affect_change) might be interesting. Intentional, do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/24 "2007-04-24T14:51:16Z")
[QUOTE=Gentle Robot] I’m reading Sound on Sound (English recording mag) and this pops up If this were from America, I’d say that’s awful grammar. Should be “Audix offer_s_ an alternative.” I’ve also seen English folk say “Coldplay are awful” as opposed to “Coldplay is awful.” Why does UK English classify proper group names as plural? Why do Americans classify them as singular? [/QUOTE] The group are never going to agree on how to handle collective nouns and proper names for a single collection composed of multiple components. Throw in Latin and the data are even less clear. When England ruled the world, they got to decide. But now that we have more money, the US gets to decide: they is wrong, wrong, wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/25 "2007-04-24T15:17:05Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Completely off-topic, but since this thread will have attracted a swarm of grammarians, I thought [this](https://www.goodstorm.com/item/conscious/dont_complain_affect_change) might be interesting. Intentional, do you think? [/QUOTE] Obviously aimed at armchair warriors. I guess wearing such a slogan could be classed as “affecting” to make a difference… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/26 "2007-04-24T15:19:51Z")
The red highlight and italics made me wonder if it might be done that way on purpose and that the misuse of the word _affect_ is the thing (or an example of something) requiring change ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/27 "2007-04-24T15:37:37Z")
[QUOTE=Colophon] Would Americans really say “The Beatles is one of the most influential bands…” or would the plural in the band name over-rule the, er, rule? [/QUOTE] In American English, if the noun takes a plural form, then the verb takes a plural form. If the noun takes a singular form, then the verb takes a singular form. Thus – The Beatles are … Coldplay is … Los Angeles is playing well … The Dodgers are playing well … The family is happy … The Joneses are happy … The government is taking a strong stand … Justice Department officials are taking a strong stand … ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/28 "2007-04-24T16:32:20Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] For example ‘Arsenal is cr/p’ definitely sounds wrong. [/QUOTE] That is because using the singular does not do full justice to the weight of crapness in this particular example. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/29 "2007-04-24T16:36:36Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] In American English, if the noun takes a plural form, then the verb takes a plural form. If the noun takes a singular form, then the verb takes a singular form. [/QUOTE] This seems absolutely correct to me, but it does introduce a quandary: would you pluralise the band ‘10,000 Maniacs’ even though the plural is entirely incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/30 "2007-04-24T17:30:32Z")
British group gramm-ARE! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/31 "2007-04-24T18:08:37Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] This seems absolutely correct to me, but it does introduce a quandary: would you pluralise the band ‘10,000 Maniacs’ even though the plural is entirely incorrect? [/QUOTE] I’m not sure I understand the question. It seems to me that, grammatically speaking, “10,000 Maniacs” is exactly equivalent to “the Beatles.” Granted, there aren’t really 10,000 of them in the recording studio or up on stage, but it’s still a plural noun. Thus – The Beatles play music. 10,000 Maniacs play music. I don’t see a quandary here, unless you’re suggesting that “10,000 Maniacs” is an alias adopted by a single individual rather than a group. In that case, I agree there’s a difficulty. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/32 "2007-04-24T19:54:11Z")
In (at least my) American English, I would say “10,000 Maniacs is…” or “Nine Inch Nails is…”, but also “The Beatles were…”. So it’s not entirely cut and dry. Perhaps because it seems, with 10,000 Maniacs or Nine Inch Nails, it’s clear we’re not actually talking about a myriad of maniacs or a bunch of nails, while with The Beatles, there is the sense that we’re talking about four people who happen to each be a Beatle. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/33 "2007-04-25T00:43:04Z")
A band usually implies more than one. Mind you, I’m not saying _every time_. Some of those Scandanavian bands aren’t even up to one full member yet. (That’s the rumor, anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/34 "2007-04-25T02:10:14Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Woe is I! [/QUOTE] Woe _am_ I. In Canada (and probably in England) one is “in hospital” and “at university”, while in the US, one is “in the hospital” and “at college”. There is no logic behind these differences, they just are facts to be observed. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/35 "2007-04-25T14:13:41Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] A band usually implies more than one. Mind you, I’m not saying _every time_. Some of those Scandanavian bands aren’t even up to one full member yet. (That’s the rumor, anyway.) [/QUOTE] Yes, but you still say “a band,” right? “A” is singular and you use it because grammatically “band” is singular. It is a band. They are members of a band. The grammar looks not to the implication but to the actual form of the noun used. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/36 "2007-04-25T14:17:18Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] I don’t see a quandary here, unless you’re suggesting that “10,000 Maniacs” is an alias adopted by a single individual rather than a group. In that case, I agree there’s a difficulty. [/QUOTE] This is the problem you get with [The Streets](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Streets), which is just one bloke (but nevertheless manages to make records just as appalling as groups composed of three or four people). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424/37 "2007-04-25T14:24:16Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] Yes, but you still say “a band,” right? “A” is singular and you use it because grammatically “band” is singular. It is a band. They are members of a band. The grammar looks not to the implication but to the actual form of the noun used. [/QUOTE] They are a band. Hmmm. That doesn’t sound at all wrong to my ears (neither does ‘it is a band’ though) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-group-grammar/401424.md?page=1)