# British English - no apostrophes in possessive business names? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 25, 2003, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481 "2003-08-25T09:23:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tradnor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cab0a1/32.png) [@Tradnor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tradnor)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/21 "2003-08-26T00:34:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by acsenray \* > \*\*Oh, and I just remembered something – I have noticed that Britons tend to add an “s” to the name of any business, whether or not it is actually part of the name. \*\* I don’t think it’s limited to Britons. Many people I know in the U.S. refer to J.C. Pennys, Nordstroms, Fred Meyers, and so on. None of these properly end in “s”. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/22 "2003-08-26T00:49:25Z")
Obvious UK exception to the rule: [Waterstone’s](http://www.waterstones.co.uk). ---
**Author:** ![dlack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@dlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dlack)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/23 "2003-08-26T01:00:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tradnor \* > \*\*I don’t think it’s limited to Britons. Many people I know in the U.S. refer to J.C. Pennys, Nordstroms, Fred Meyers, and so on. None of these properly end in “s”. \*\* Actually, where I’m from, it was pretty common to (obviously erroneously) say Ames’s instead of Ames. Before they went out of business. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/24 "2003-08-26T03:59:20Z")
There is a street in Whitby, Ontario called Annes Street. Everyone I know pronounces it as two syllables, “ann-ess”. One day in high school I was looking at an old map of the town, and to my surprise saw it written as “Anne’s Street”. Then there was another street, a country road really, named D’hillier Street. It had two spoken names: “duh-hill-ee-ur” and “deel-ee-ay”. When I was a kid, I wasn’t even sure whether these were the same street. Later, I started taking French, and I suddenly realised that the two “names” were simply the English and French pronunciations of the name! Sadly the area was substantially developed and the streets were re-routed, and I’m not sure whether the street exists anymore under its old name. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/25 "2003-08-26T04:07:39Z")
Then there’s the case of the T. Eaton Company. Its department stores were known as “Eaton’s”… except in Quebec after the Quiet Revolution, where, amidst great controversy, they were changed to “Eaton”. This inspired the comic [Angloman](http://www.angloman.com/), among other things. Of course, that no longer matters. The firm was run into the ground …and was bought …by _Sears_ (no apostrophe). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/26 "2003-08-26T12:29:56Z")
Sears was founded as the R. W. Sears Watch Co. by Richard Sears of Minneapolis. So there’s no missing apostrophe there. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/27 "2003-08-26T13:57:25Z")
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the apostrophe-free Starbucks (now building at least four more stores in your local high street). It ain’t just a British thing, folks. At least McDonald’s retains its McPostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![BORIS33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@BORIS33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BORIS33)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/28 "2011-04-06T06:19:15Z")
In the discussion (way back!) about the use of apostrophes in business names, somebody asked about the UK business called Halfords. This is a British chain of shops which sells bicycles, camping gear, motor car accessories etc. The question was, where did the name come from? The name doesn’t come from the name of the first owner. It comes from the name of the street in Leicester (England) where the company was sited, ie HALFORD STREET. For some reason which I don’t understand, this street is pronounced “HAL-FORD”, so the company should by rights be called "HAL-FORD"s. But in the UK it isn’t. Most people get it wrong and pronounce it “HAR-FORDS” to rhyme with the way the British pronounce “half” whereas US speakers would get it right. The wrong pronunciation of this well-known chain store is now so ingrained into the way the British say the name that if in Britain you were to pronounce the name correctly, most people wouldn’t recognize it. ---
**Author:** ![Charley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/97f17d/32.png) [@Charley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charley)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/29 "2011-04-06T06:28:17Z")
> [@BORIS33](#): > > the company should by rights be called "HAL-FORD"s. But in the UK it isn’t. Most people get it wrong and pronounce it “HAR-FORDS” to rhyme with the way the British pronounce “half” whereas US speakers would get it right. The wrong pronunciation of this well-known chain store is now so ingrained into the way the British say the name that if in Britain you were to pronounce the name correctly, most people wouldn’t recognize it. Zombie bicycles apparently. My inner pedant just won’t let this go, I’m afraid, 8-year old thread or no. This assertion just isn’t true, I’m sorry. I don’t know of anyone in the UK (although in the interests of science I’m prepared to accept there may be some) who pronounces it HAR-FORDS. It’s pronounced HAL-FORDS, just as you claim it ought to be. In fact I can honestly say that until just now it had never occurred to me that the name contains the word ‘half’. I’m not sure where your idea came from, but it’s not true at all. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/30 "2011-04-06T06:57:00Z")
> [@BORIS33](#): > > The wrong pronunciation of this well-known chain store is now so ingrained into the way the British say the name that if in Britain you were to pronounce the name correctly, most people wouldn’t recognize it. Utter twaddle. ---
**Author:** ![BDoors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BDoors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BDoors)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/31 "2011-04-06T07:36:51Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Obvious UK exception to the rule: [Waterstone’s](http://www.waterstones.co.uk). And in the seven years or so since \*\*bonzer \*\*made that comment, the apostrophe has disappeared from Waterstone’s logo (although not, it seems, from the company’s name). ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/32 "2011-04-06T08:46:21Z")
> [@Charley](#): > > This assertion just isn’t true, I’m sorry. I don’t know of anyone in the UK (although in the interests of science I’m prepared to accept there may be some) who pronounces it HAR-FORDS > [@jjimm](#): > > Utter twaddle. I’ve never heard anyone call it anything but “Hal-fords” either. I’m reminded, though, of the clothing chain Mackays, which I’ve heard many people pronounce to rhyme with “days”, but which was “officially” pronounced to rhyme with “skies”. I don’t know whether this has anything to do with why they changed their name to “M&Co”. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/33 "2011-04-06T08:56:06Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > It’s anathema to me. > > There’s another example of this phenomenon with regard to street naming: in my village there was a Druids Walk - did this mean the sort of place in which multiple druids may be found walking, or is it the walk belonging to a single druid? There was a Kings Close, too - belonging to the king, or a place of many kings?.. I’d read these as declarative statements. Druids walk, and kings don’t stay open. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/34 "2011-04-06T11:19:52Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > It’s anathema to me. > > There’s another example of this phenomenon with regard to street naming: in my village there was a Druids Walk - did this mean the sort of place in which multiple druids may be found walking, or is it the walk belonging to a single druid? There was a Kings Close, too - belonging to the king, or a place of many kings? > > Woolworths follows this style too. I think, prescriptively, it is incorrect. > > Most of those companies were incorporated a while back, though. I am interested in whether or not those businesses had apostrophies when they were first started. Anyone know of any retro-UK business sites? Zombie department store spotted. ETA Another vote for “Harfords” being twaddle. ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/35 "2011-04-06T11:42:35Z")
> [@NoGoodNamesLeft](#): > > Here in Canada “Tim Hortons” refuses to use the possessive apostrophe as well. I remember reading it was a decision by the graphic design people simply because the logo “looked better” without it. I had heard that it was a question of not looking too “English” when they started opening outlets in Québec. According to the [Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hortons), the change was made in 1993 to conform to Québec laws concerning languages on signs. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/36 "2011-04-06T12:01:34Z")
Still nobody seems to be able to get Jack Daniel’s right. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/37 "2011-04-06T13:47:30Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > I’ve never heard anyone call it anything but “Hal-fords” either. Actually there _are_ two common pronunciations of “Halfords” in the UK - in fact I never know which one to use so tend to use either, at random. Neither of them is “Half-ords”, though; they are “Hal-fuhds” and “Hall-fuhds”. (That “uh” is meant to indicate a schwa, BTW.) Now that I come to think of it, I’m pretty sure the TV adverts say “Hal-fuhds”, but I hear it more commonly (here in the south of England) as “Hall-fuhds”. Related post from the always fascinating _Language Log_ blog by John Wells: > [@](#): > > He raises a different but similar point, namely the identity of the vowel in Halfords (a well-known chain of cycle shops). Mark says > > \*\*I still don’t know whether it is hɒlfədz or hælfədz. \*\* > > Personally I say neither of the above, but hɔːlfədz. I think this is one of a number of words spelt with \ in which spelling pronunciation is leading to the replacement of historical /ɔː/ succesively by /ɔːl/ or /ɒl/ and then ultimately by /æl/. A good example is falcon, which used to be /ˈfɔːkən/ but is now increasingly /ˈfælkən/. (Taken from [http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/blog0711.htm](http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/blog0711.htm) , about three-quarters of the way down the page) The two choices given in the bolded section are more like “holl-fuhds” and “hal-fuhds”; Wells says he prefers “hall-fuhds”, which is also what I tend to use. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/38 "2011-04-06T13:53:48Z")
Missed the edit window - my mistake, Wells’s blog is not called Language Log; I’ve confused it with another blog I read. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/39 "2011-04-06T14:13:05Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Oh, and I just remembered something – I have noticed that Britons tend to add an “s” to the name of any business, whether or not it is actually part of the name. I have a friend who works for the London office of the Chicago-based law firm Sidley Austin Brown & Wood. Here in the U.S., we just abbreviate the name as “Sidley”; however, my English friend always refers to it as “Sidleys.” Americans do the same thing to at least one store: Cato is very often said as Cato’s. Similarly, I’m used to hearing Walmarks for Walmart. And I’m in the founding state. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481/40 "2011-04-06T14:52:54Z")
> [@Tradnor](#): > > I don’t think it’s limited to Britons. Many people I know in the U.S. refer to J.C. Pennys, Nordstroms, Fred Meyers, and so on. None of these properly end in “s”. For awhile JC Penny was advertising itself as Pennys and some stores even had [Pennys](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3428/3274697435_dd026f0546.jpg) signs [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-english-no-apostrophes-in-possessive-business-names/197481.md?page=3)