# British Navy quote ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 19, 2000, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-navy-quote/29984 "2000-08-19T20:22:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@Jorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-navy-quote/29984/1 "2000-08-19T20:22:14Z")
Anyone recall the precise wording, and source/author, of a quote along the lines of “Rum, buggery and the whip made the British Navy…” (I seem to recall it as a 19th century toungue in cheek comment by Brit. Naval Minister.) Any historians or anglophiles got an idea ? Search engines got me porno sites I didn’t want to know about. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-navy-quote/29984/2 "2000-08-19T20:23:52Z")
Rum, sodomy and the lash. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-navy-quote/29984/3 "2000-08-19T20:26:36Z")
Full quote is “Don’t talk to me about naval tradition. It’s nothing but Rum, Sodomy and the Lash.” and the speaker was Winston Churchill. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-navy-quote/29984/4 "2000-08-19T21:11:33Z")
> [@](#): > > “Rum, sodomy and the lash”: The only traditions of the Royal Navy are rum, sodomy and the lash. - – Churchill’s assistant, Anthony Montague-Browne said that although Churchill had not said this, he wished he had. from [http://www.winstonchurchill.org/bonmots2.htm](http://www.winstonchurchill.org/bonmots2.htm) Unfortunately, they don’t give an alternate source. A worthy maibag item, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Jorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@Jorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-navy-quote/29984/5 "2000-08-20T08:02:49Z")
Thanks, black455. You’re right: Odd they didn’t provide the year and context. This must be a job for … ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-navy-quote/29984/6 "2000-08-20T09:54:20Z")
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Churchill used the phrase as the following by a book reviewer suggests: _“Thus Winston Churchill, as First Lord of the Admiralty, irritably dismissed ‘the traditions of the Royal Navy, harrumph, hm-hmm’ in an argument with some mossbacked Sea Lords. His naval advisors kept opposing every suggested reform as ‘not being in the traditions of the Navy’; until Winston lost his patience and snapped, ‘The traditions of the Navy? And what pray are those? They are three, gentlemen: rum, sodomy, and the lash.’ Even the proudest Englishman gets, at times, a trifle tired of the sheer self-satisfaction of the Senior Service, revere the Navy as he may.”_ - that’s rather different from being the origin. Churchill obviously had an appreciation for a nice turn of phrase and may have borrowed it from a more obscure source. I can’t offer a source attribution, perhaps someone with the right reference books will wander along. The link quoted by **black 455** is equally unhelpful - seems odd to deny an attribution and not give the source BTW, this phrase was on my shortlist of possible user names. I remain sorely tempted. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-navy-quote/29984/7 "2000-08-20T12:05:37Z")
I suspect that the quote by Churchill was probably paraphrased by him, as a variant is still used today. Rum, bum and baccy . This certainly rolls off the tongue more readily but likely was not the way polite company would say it. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-navy-quote/29984/8 "2000-08-20T12:44:01Z")
I suppose someone could ask Chief Scott for the Naval view but given his recent arrival on terra firma, at this moment he is probably working hard, and harder stilll, on a more literal interpretation :eek: ---
**Author:** ![jcgmoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@jcgmoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcgmoi)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-navy-quote/29984/9 "2000-08-20T15:17:56Z")
[This site](http://www.grazian-archive.com/History/P02_C08_.htm) offers a variant I haven’t seen elsewhere: “Rum, **prayers** , sodomy and the lash!”, but again attributed to Churchill. I found a book by Hans Turley entitled _Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash: Piracy, Sexuality, and Masculine Identity_, New York University Press, 1999. If the author gave the true attribution someone with access to a university library might be able to resolve the question. My own guess is **Casdave** is right. I suspect the sentiment expressed had been in the air for decades, if not centuries. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-navy-quote/29984/10 "2000-08-20T15:22:34Z")
From the **Oxford Dictionary of Quotations** , 3[sup]d[/sup] edition under “Winston Churchill” > [@](#): > > **Don’t talk to me about naval tradition. It’s nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.** > > Sir Peter Gretton, _Former Naval Person_ ch. 1. Sometimes quoted as ‘Rum, buggery and the lash’; compare ‘Rum, bum, and bacca’ and ‘Ashore it’s wine women and song, aboard it’s rum, bum and concertina’, naval catch-phrases dating from the nineteenth century.