British Occupation of Ireland

[Stanislaus]

Why do you care whether soldiers come from unemployment blackspots or not? Why are you surprised that they use sophisiticated weaponry - you were expecting maybe flintlocks?

“The " So called " Police have been directly involved in the killing of non-combatants, Human rights lawyers and obstruction of external investigations into their activities.”

Try:
The " So called " freedom fighters have been directly involved in the killing of non-combatants, Human rights lawyers and obstruction of external investigations into their activities.

They’re also acknowledged to be heavily involved in the drugs trade and have a habit of permanently crippling those who speak out against them. Freedom for all!

This is just the tip of the iceberg, one of the reasons I brought this up is the blatant hypocricy of some people who were either glad to fight for their freedom or bleed off the wounds of others and gain their freedom and then have the balls to tell us not to fight

It’s been pointed out before, but as a result of lot of hard work by various people with good intentions, there is now an agreed structure for a peaceful resolution of these problems. So violence, which is always a means of last resort in political struggle, is unnecessary in this instance.

I salute the present leadership of the Republican movement in Ireland in the way they are going about things despite the provocation from the crown forces and their allies in the ranks of the Unionist murdergangs.

What provocation? Incidentally, the crown forces are not, strange to say, allied with loyalist terrorist groups. Frankly, if the present Republican leadership has any interest in peaceful resolution, then they can demonstrate this by a symbolic decommissioning of some of their arms. If you’re committed to peace, you’ve got a very limited need for surface-to-air missiles. At this point, any decommisioning at all would have a significant symbolic impact and help to get the process back on track.

The British know how to fight alright, they just don’t seem to understand peace and are struggling with the thought that they are loosing their largest " Training ground " for their army.

This is just nonsense. Firstly, the British have consistently demonstrated, during the tenure of two different governments, a commitment to peace through negotiation. I would suggest that it is the extremists on both sides who have a limited understanding of, or desire for, peace. Secondly, to suggest that Britain has been maintaining a military presence in NI simply to train troops is pushing paranoia to the limits.

Volunteer for what, precisely?

[oglaigh32]

Just a few points on Steve Wrights comments:

Apologies for the snips:

STEVE:
In 1993, the Sunday Telegraph published a poll which showed that 56% of the population of England no longer wanted to retain Northern Ireland as part of the UK.

You are talking about the democratic wishes of the people here Steve, when has that ever matter to Mother-England during her murdering rampage across the face of the earth?

STEVE:
Ireland was partitioned in 1921 because the largely Protestant population of what is now Northern Ireland emphatically did not want to be part of a united, largely Catholic, Ireland,

You ommited to mention that these same people were the PLANTERS and the state you mention ( Northern Ireland ) was set up by the British to ensure a Protestant majority in a selected geographical area. Ever hear of gerrymandering?

STEVE:
the Loyalist paramilitaries comfortably outnumber the IRA and other Republican groups. It is generally believed in the UK that the withdrawal of British security forces from Northern Ireland would result in immediate armed conflict between Republican and Loyalist forces, leading to bloodshed on a much greater scale than currently exists.
You overestimate the ability of Unionist paramilitaries, trust me when I say they have been trying their VERY best to wipe out the Nationalist population and indeed have inflicted much damage on our people, this with the full co-operation of the crown forces. I have 100% confidence in the IRA’s ability to defend Nationalist / Republican areas in such a senario, the situation for isolated Catholics would be different. I don’t believe that Unionist paramilitaries have the stomach for a sustained war on the scale of which you speak, especially without the back-up they get from the crown forces.
STEVE:
extreme Unionists,such as the DUP under Ian Paisley, as widely condemned).

Incorrect in one sense in that the DUP have the largest vote in the Unionist camp and Paisley always beats Trimble in ANY election.

STEVE:
And, since moves towards Irish unification by peaceful means would receive considerable popular support in the UK, it
follows that there is no justification for violence in that cause.

Presently ( And for the last seven years ) there has been no war with the crown forces from the Irish Republican Army and during that time there have been at least two elections in Britain, so why are they still here if they support a united Ireland being sought by peaceful means?

The first general election held in Ireland showed that a massive majority of the Irish people, North, South, East and West wanted a united Ireland. England ignored our wishes then and still does today.

How would any of you feel to be a 45-55 year old living in South Armagh, married with a family, working the land that generations before you did only to find yourself on a daily basis having to answer to some 17 year old from across the sea who’s sticking a gun in your face…Tip of the iceberg:

[Gary_Kumquat]

*Originally posted by oglaigh32 *
This is just the tip of the iceberg, one of the reasons I brought this up is the blatant hypocricy of some people who were either glad to fight for their freedom or bleed off the wounds of others and gain their freedom and then have the balls to tell us not to fight.

Sorry, but what the hell are you talking about here.

And who is it you want to fight against? Who do you want to go to war with? The whole of the UK? As the opinion poll above shows, most would be more than happy to give Ireland back. The army? You think they want to be there? Get real, I’ve got enough squaddie mates to know just what sort of opinion they have for that posting. Or is it the UK government? You honestly think they gain some benefit from having to cover the cost of that sort of operation?

The only people with any vested interest in keeping this farce running are the paramilitaries. They have the most to lose by a peaceful solution to the whole issue, as it’s the current situation that gives what little legitimacy they currently have for their criminal activities. They’re just a bunch of pyschotic wannabe gangsters, playing with guns and explosives, running drugs and protection rackets. What glorious freedom fighters, eh? And they’re the only people who benefit from this unholy mess. No-one else gains anything. No one.

So, you want to fight for Ireland’s freedom. Who are you going to fight? How are you going to do it? A few bombs, perhaps the odd driveby shooting? And what will that achieve? Other than provoking a few tit for tat actions from loyalist forces, and a few more pointless atrocities, not a damned thing. But on you go, go have a ball.

[kabbes]

How would any of you feel to be a 45-55 year old living in South Armagh, married with a family, working the land that generations before you did only to find yourself on a daily basis having to answer to some 17 year old from across the sea who’s sticking a gun in your face[?]

I’d feel utterly let down by the Republicans who claim to be “representing” me, that they cause such violence that the only answer available to the government to place a military presence on the streets.

Your trouble, “volunteer”*, is that you have absolutely zero empathy. You seem to be incapable of seeing any point of view or understanding of any position other than your own.

I support the Republican position. My family has a long history of it. Indeed, my great grandfather was Michael Collins’ right hand man and the first to him when he was assassinated. I have a photo of the two together, and Michael Collins was not a man noted for being keen to have photos taken of him.

But I cannot place myself anywhere near your position. You are forgetting that all sides in this are human beings, simply trying to live their lives as best they can. The protestants are not faceless bastards, intent on stealing your soul. They are men, women and children who are frightened that their town may contain the next bomb.

I find the terrorists on both sides less than human. May they burn in whatever hell they believe in.

pan

*again, volunteer for what?

[Gary_Kumquat]

*Originally posted by oglaigh32 *
You are talking about the democratic wishes of the people here Steve, when has that ever matter to Mother-England during her murdering rampage across the face of the earth?

Ah, so it’ll be jingoistic rhetoric you’ve opted for. Oh joy.

You ommited to mention that these same people were the PLANTERS and the state you mention ( Northern Ireland ) was set up by the British to ensure a Protestant majority in a selected geographical area. Ever hear of gerrymandering?

You know, you might want to decide who you’re looking to blame - the English, or the British. The two are not interchangeable. Now, why don’t you go on to announce when these people moved there. On you go. You see, you’re talking about people born and bred there too, with just as much claim to it as you do.

You overestimate the ability of Unionist paramilitaries, trust me when I say they have been trying their VERY best to wipe out the Nationalist population and indeed have inflicted much damage on our people, this with the full co-operation of the crown forces. I have 100% confidence in the IRA’s ability to defend Nationalist / Republican areas in such a senario, the situation for isolated Catholics would be different. I don’t believe that Unionist paramilitaries have the stomach for a sustained war on the scale of which you speak, especially without the back-up they get from the crown forces.

So, after Northern Ireland returns to Irish rule, you’re still going to have two groups of terrorists blowing shit out of each other (with passing civilians taking the most damage) but that’s okay because in your considered and learned opinion the unionists won’t have the stomach for it. You know, that could be the least convincing argument I’ve ever read.

[irishgirl]

oglaigh, thank you for making those wonderfully enlightened statements.

everyone else. please ignore him/her/it. they are stirring trouble and will not respond to reason.

and i believe that was a call to volunteer for a proscribed terrorist organisation. but i could be wrong…

i’m with the majority of people in this province, for christ’s sake stop spouting jingoistic claptrap and just look at yourselves. you’re a bunch of wee boys involved in a pissing competition and we’d like you to stop.

also, if the UK doesn’t want us, what makes you so sure ireland does? the celtic tiger doesn’t really need the addition of the poorest part of the Uk does it?

in fact if you’re obnoxious enough you might just find northern ireland is just abandoned completely by both powers and then we’ll see how much fun it is.

[Steve_Wright]

Just to return the favour…

*Originally posted by oglaigh32 *
**Just a few points on Steve Wrights comments:

Apologies for the snips:

STEVE:
In 1993, the Sunday Telegraph published a poll which showed that 56% of the population of England no longer wanted to retain Northern Ireland as part of the UK.

You are talking about the democratic wishes of the people here Steve, when has that ever matter to Mother-England during her murdering rampage across the face of the earth?
**

I’m not going to touch this one with a ten-foot pole.

**STEVE:
Ireland was partitioned in 1921 because the largely Protestant population of what is now Northern Ireland emphatically did not want to be part of a united, largely Catholic, Ireland,

You ommited to mention that these same people were the PLANTERS and the state you mention ( Northern Ireland ) was set up by the British to ensure a Protestant majority in a selected geographical area. Ever hear of gerrymandering?
**

Yes, the plantation of northern Ireland by largely Scottish Protestants was, with hindsight, a mistake. However, since that mistake was made in the seventeenth century, it’s too late to rectify it now.

**
STEVE:
the Loyalist paramilitaries comfortably outnumber the IRA and other Republican groups. It is generally believed in the UK that the withdrawal of British security forces from Northern Ireland would result in immediate armed conflict between Republican and Loyalist forces, leading to bloodshed on a much greater scale than currently exists.
You overestimate the ability of Unionist paramilitaries, trust me when I say they have been trying their VERY best to wipe out the Nationalist population and indeed have inflicted much damage on our people, this with the full co-operation of the crown forces. I have 100% confidence in the IRA’s ability to defend Nationalist / Republican areas in such a senario, the situation for isolated Catholics would be different. I don’t believe that Unionist paramilitaries have the stomach for a sustained war on the scale of which you speak, especially without the back-up they get from the crown forces.
**

I don’t think I overestimate the Loyalist paramilitaries: they are there, and they are dangerous. Nor do I think they receive anything like full cooperation from Crown forces. Check the CAIN site for estimated strengths of the various paramilitary factions. And note that the Loyalists have been in direct conflict with security forces on numerous occasions; in fact, the first RUC policeman to die during the current “Troubles” was shot by Loyalist paramilitaries.

**
STEVE:
extreme Unionists,such as the DUP under Ian Paisley, as widely condemned).

Incorrect in one sense in that the DUP have the largest vote in the Unionist camp and Paisley always beats Trimble in ANY election.
**

Yes, Paisley is more popular amongst the Unionists - which illustrates the divide between the Unionists and the people of England, most of whom would be quite happy to drop Paisley down a deep hole.

**
STEVE:
And, since moves towards Irish unification by peaceful means would receive considerable popular support in the UK, it
follows that there is no justification for violence in that cause.

Presently ( And for the last seven years ) there has been no war with the crown forces from the Irish Republican Army and during that time there have been at least two elections in Britain, so why are they still here if they support a united Ireland being sought by peaceful means?
**

Because the paramilitaries (of both sides) are still there, still armed, still a threat to the democratic process. And because, for the time being at least, the Unionists still comprise the majority in Northern Ireland. While this is the case, there will not be a united Ireland - even if the British government unilaterally cut the province loose, it wouldn’t join with the Republic of its own will.

**
The first general election held in Ireland showed that a massive majority of the Irish people, North, South, East and West wanted a united Ireland. England ignored our wishes then and still does today.
**

Yes, a majority wanted it. But, as I’ve said, a minority - all settled in one section of the island - didn’t, and were prepared to fight to avoid it.

**
How would any of you feel to be a 45-55 year old living in South Armagh, married with a family, working the land that generations before you did only to find yourself on a daily basis having to answer to some 17 year old from across the sea who’s sticking a gun in your face…Tip of the iceberg:
**

I don’t imagine I’d like it much… but at least a British Army soldier is answerable in British law for his actions. (I concede that British law needs to be improved.) What recourse do I have if it’s a paramilitary sticking a gun in my face?

[London_Calling]

The Good Friday Agreement – proposed jointly by the British and Irish Governments - was supported by 71% of the Northern Irish electorate (of whom 80% actually voted). Analysis suggests over 90% of Northern Irish Catholics voted in support of the Agreement.

That process is now stalled because the representatives of the Northern Irish Catholics won’t fulfil their obligations - as voted for by over 90% of the people they claim to represent - under that Agreement.

That’s the 21st century democratic reality. Wallow in some long distant, melancholic, sentimental sepia-toned non-reality if you will but after 30 years of achieving nothing, I’d hazard the rest of us prefer to try to resolve this through a popularly supported and wholly democratic process. It ain’t perfect because it’s the product of compromise but it has the singular merit of being democratic.

You sir, filter the shit of history through your own personal psychological ‘condition’ in order to provide you with a ‘cause’. You are yesterdays man – non-democratic, non-negotiating, non-compromising, craving the buzz of confrontation and violence, the pathetic little self-styled ‘freedom fighter’ who watched too many films, the small man who hungered for the ‘respect’ of his peer group, a needy ‘glamour’ wannabie - and, in my humble opinion, can fuck off from whence you came.

You sad, sad little man.

[Gary_Kumquat]

*Originally posted by London_Calling *
That process is now stalled because the representatives of the Northern Irish Catholics won’t fulfil their obligations - as voted for by over 90% of the people they claim to represent - under that Agreement.

LC, I’m sorry, but I think that’s almost as inaccurate as Volunteer’s statements.

[Gary_Kumquat]

But, I should add, I completely concur with the rest of your posting.

[London_Calling]

Happy to take it back if it’s factually wrong, Gary…looking for cites now…

[Steve_Wright]

Well, my take on it is that Trimble tried to force Sinn Fein’s hand on the issue of decommissioning, and Sinn Fein refused to be forced… leading to the current entanglements.

You could argue that Trimble should have tried a more conciliatory approach, but that’s ignoring the reality that he had to be seen to take a strong line if he was to stand any chance of keeping the Unionist hard-liners on board. But I can’t help feeling that now would be a really good time for Sinn Fein to make some solid committments towards the peace process - whether by decommissioning or by some other means (what happened to that idea of having their arms dumps sealed and inspected by a neutral third party?)

(All this is off the top of my head… I’m supposed to be at work, you know…)

[kabbes]

(Have they started paying you again yet, Steve?)

[London_Calling]

Well if you can translate this to everyone’s satisfaction you’re a better man than me, Gunga Din. Lies, damn lies and statistics…plus an ‘interpretative analysis’ of the actual voting. I offer it more in hope than expectation:

http://www.irelandstory.com/today/good_friday/polls.html#religious
Anyone got anything better, please !
Steve - They are sealed and have been inspected. It’s the next step in the Good Friday Agreement process - the decommisioning - that is proving a problem. Or the lack thereof to be exact.

[Gary_Kumquat]

Is anyone else deeply worried that decommisioning is deeply unlikely to occur. The paramilitary organisations seem like little more than third rate gangsters trying to use politics as an excuse for their actions (it’s not racketeering, it’s freedom fighting, honest). Why the hell would they ever want to give in their guns?

Wouldn’t it make more sense just to go ahead with the peace process, thus once and for all removing all political excuses for their behaviour?

[Gary_Kumquat]

Oh, and sorry for the poor grammar.

[Stanislaus]

*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat *
**Is anyone else deeply worried that decommisioning is deeply unlikely to occur. The paramilitary organisations seem like little more than third rate gangsters trying to use politics as an excuse for their actions (it’s not racketeering, it’s freedom fighting, honest). Why the hell would they ever want to give in their guns?

Wouldn’t it make more sense just to go ahead with the peace process, thus once and for all removing all political excuses for their behaviour? **

Well, trust being something of an issue here, no one’s really happy with the idea of an “armed peace” because it wouldn’t take much to kick the whole sorry mess off again. Much better for the paramilitaries to lay down their arms, commit to peace and bring an end to warfare/terrorism in the area. There are really two parts to the peace process: “Peaceful co-existence” and “Dispute resolution”. The latter deals with democratically determining the future status of NI. The former deals with bringing an end to terrorism. Resolution will be easier to acheive if neither side feels it has the option of violence as a negotiating tool.

On the other hand, the parties at the negotiating table do not necessarily speak for the paramilitaries (e.g. the “Real IRA” and equivalent hard-line loyalists), partly because, yes, these guys are more attached to violence and crime than to the original “Cause”. This non-representation is problematic: pushing on as much as possible is the only solution, but the sticking point will (has?) been reached, where a serious commitment to disarming is the only step forward.

[Steve_Wright]

Well, I’ve been trawling through the link provided by LC (yes, kabbes, like Wally in Dilbert, I’m reducing the quality of my work until it’s consistent with my compensation), and it really does seem to bear out his point that decommissioning is the sticking point. Though I’m also somewhat concerned by the lukewarm nature of Unionist support for the Good Friday Agreement… though that support might well strengthen if the decommissioning process were to go forward.

It is an impasse… and, if the peace process is to continue, someone’s going to have to hand over some guns. And it would be a really good idea if that someone, right now, came from the nationalist side - if only because it would bolster their claims to be the reasonable party, as against the intransigence of the Unionists. (And if the Unionist paramilitaries have made a commitment to hand over their weapons if the IRA give up theirs - well, if the IRA do start giving up weapons, the UVA and UDF will have to put their money where their mouth is, no?)

[Lemur866]

And everyone has hit the nail on the head. People like our little friend here aren’t interested in peace, justice, or democracy. They are interested in having fun running around, going to exciting secret meetings, shooting people, planting bombs in pubs, and playing with cool weapons. Freedom for Ireland, or Union with Britain mean nothing to them. They just like pretending to be big shots.

Oglaigh, you know that if the Brits left the Unionists would revolt. But you think it would be simple enough just to shoot all of them. “They don’t have the stomach for it”. Bah. I see. YOUR side has all the brave people. The Unionists are all wissy-men, not like you big, strong Republicans. But exactly how much bravery does it take to plant a bomb in apub? Now could you please undertake not to make such silly statements again?

[casdave]

Ruadh I did not know that abortion was illegal in NI and I am amazed at that fact since it is part of the UK and is legal there, still one lives and learns.

Oglaigh
Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story.

How would any of you feel to be a 45-55 year old living in South Armagh, married with a family, working the land that generations before you did only to find yourself on a daily basis having to answer to some 17 year old from across the sea who’s sticking a gun in your face…

The British Army does not post those under 18 to NI since they can opt out of service in the shortest time and losing the investment in their training would be a drain.

Apart fom which, it is very unlikely that there would be just one soldier, there would be at the very least a patrol with at least one NCO and very likely a Commisioned Officer directing operations.

Who cares about how many can be called to arms by either side right at the moment, just what will happen when the shit hits the fan and civil war commences ?
There would be no problem with recruiting for both sides, and obtaining weapons from the remnants of Eastern Europena armies would be easy enough too.

And what do you think the many Irish living and working in the rest of the UK will do ? just sit and watch or perhaps they might try to start things off where they are, and then you would see everyone with an Irish accent victimised and forced out or killed.
Do not be niaive, when the war begins you would find the veneer of civilisation wafer thin.

Freedom of the grave, victory of the dead, glory of bereavement.

Ogliagh you may, and may well not, have folk you love and love you, do not wish death and destruction upon them, especially when there is a viable alternative which might even achieve what you seek.