# British police respond then listen to woman being raped for 12 hours before acting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2008, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093 "2008-04-20T06:09:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/1 "2008-04-20T06:09:29Z")
Is this story for real? It seems almost too bizarre to be true. [12-hour rape ordeal of woman held hostage during police siege](http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/04/19/12-hour-rape-ordeal-of-woman-held-hostage-during-police-siege-86908-20387501/) I don’t question British bravery as I know they readily go in harm’s way if the situation requires it, but this delay seems inexcusable. Is this typical British law enforcement hostage procedure for someone armed with a knife? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/2 "2008-04-20T07:55:20Z")
No, this isn’t typical. Individual police forces in the UK would have discretion to make their own decisions, usually taken by the commander on the spot, who would balance all the potential risks and likely outcomes before reaching a conclusion. This particular decision was clearly questionable but it’s down to the commander involved and has nothing to do with any national policy. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/3 "2008-04-20T07:58:05Z")
There was a hostage held at knifepoint by a dangerous and violent man. Trying to force entry could have got her killed. Tell me what you think they should have done. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/4 "2008-04-20T08:26:44Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] There was a hostage held at knifepoint by a dangerous and violent man. Trying to force entry could have got her killed. Tell me what you think they should have done. [/QUOTE] Something better than waiting for 12 hours of his abuse of her until he fell asleep, and even then only entering after being directed by the victim to force the door. At some point you have to weigh the odds, and take some initiative if someone is in mortal danger. Coming through a window and shooting him or ramming the door and shooting him, or even using a sniper (if possible) come to mind. Confronting him may have endangered her, but how much less danger was she really in every second this psycho was alone with her. But in the end, it’s all second guessing as they were there, and we were not, it’s just I’ve never heard of a police force letting abuse of a victim go on for hours and hours like that. It seems there should have been some other options available to a competent hostage response team other than simply hoping that he got tuckered out raping and abusing her. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/5 "2008-04-20T08:50:13Z")
Are British police trained to deal with hostage scenarios? Yes, that is a rhetorical question. _Every_ police force in the civilized world is trained to deal with hostage scenarios. That training is supposed to prevent scenarios much (read: exactly) like this one. What if he’d decided to kill her before nodding off? It’s obvious what _that_ bunch would have done, and Jack just left town. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/6 "2008-04-20T09:58:10Z")
[QUOTE=astro] Something better than waiting for 12 hours of his abuse of her until he fell asleep, and even then only entering after being directed by the victim to force the door. At some point you have to weigh the odds, and take some initiative if someone is in mortal danger. Coming through a window and shooting him or ramming the door and shooting him, or even using a sniper (if possible) come to mind. [/QUOTE] British police generally have a very non-confrontational approach to hostage situations. Certainly not charging the building with guns blazing. Precisely _because_ of the odds for the people in mortal danger. [Example](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2629607.stm) of an eleven-day stand-off, where everybody remained unharmed. Obviously there’s a major difference in the Edinburgh case, in that in ensuring the woman survived, other horrific harm was done. However, the alternative was for the police to gamble with her life in order to prevent her being raped, hardly a simple decision to take. ---
**Author:** ![fierra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58956e/32.png) [@fierra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fierra)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/7 "2008-04-20T15:52:10Z")
Speaking as a British citizen, it surprises me that the British police manage to put their shoes on correctly in the morning. [QUOTE=GorillaMan] However, the alternative was for the police to gamble with her life in order to prevent her being raped, hardly a simple decision to take. [/QUOTE] But leaving her inside with a man armed with a knife who was known to be unstable and who had said he had nothing to lose was gambling with her life, and ensuring that the additional abuse continued to happen. They were both gambles, but the one they chose had a side bet cost that should never in any situation have been allowed to happen. If it were me, I’d like to see the officers that responded and stood by and did nothing allowing him to repeatedly rape me charged with being an accessory to rape, before the fact, since they knew the later ones were going to happen, had the means to stop it and did nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/8 "2008-04-20T15:55:44Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] There was a hostage held at knifepoint by a dangerous and violent man. Trying to force entry could have got her killed. Tell me what you think they should have done. [/QUOTE] Speaking as a survivor of a sexual crime, I’d want the police to _immediately_ force the door when it was clear that further abuse was happening and shoot the bastard if he resisted. Despite what the TV says, it’s not that easy to suddenly kill someone with a knife, especially if they’re struggling and you’re distracted by armed police kicking your door in telling you to stop or die. See Qadgop’s post in here about how it’s difficult to make a fatal knife wound even if you try to do it yourself. [How hard would it be to stab yourself to death? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=464596) To defend in any way the cowardice and idiocy of the British police in this case is offensive to me. They certainly have SWAT teams and despite what the TV says they certainly have guns - remember the man killed for carrying an assault table leg? So you can shoot a man if you suspect he might be carrying an Evil Gun ([BBC NEWS | UK | The police marksman's dilemma](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4711619.stm)), but not one who’s torturing a woman for 12 hours right in front of you? :rolleyes: Oh, and FTR the police **did** gamble with the victim’s life. Why would anyone on earth believe that a certifiably insane man ([12-hour rape ordeal of woman held hostage during police siege - Daily Record](http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/04/19/12-hour-rape-ordeal-of-woman-held-hostage-during-police-siege-86908-20387501/)) already set to repeatedly torture and rape a woman for 12 hours wouldn’t be likely to kill her when he got tired of it? What does he have to lose? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/9 "2008-04-20T16:14:04Z")
> [@fierra](#): > > But leaving her inside with a man armed with a knife who was known to be unstable and who had said he had nothing to lose was gambling with her life, and ensuring that the additional abuse continued to happen. They were both gambles, but the one they chose had a side bet cost that should never in any situation have been allowed to happen. It doesn’t appear that the police at the time knew that the man had declared he had ‘nothing to lose’. And it could have appeared to the negotiators that the situation inside was calmer and more controlled than was actually the case. I’m not trying to defend the police actions here, it certainly does appear that bad decisions were made. However I’m going to defend the police against unreasonable expectations brought on by hindsight. [QUOTE=Una Persson] a certifiably insane man ([12-hour rape ordeal of woman held hostage during police siege - Daily Record](http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/04/19/12-hour-rape-ordeal-of-woman-held-hostage-during-police-siege-86908-20387501/)) [/QUOTE] That article says the opposite: > [@](#): > > A psychiatrist who examined McKay said he had a “marked personality disorder” and had been diagnosed as schizophrenic but was sane and fit to plead. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/10 "2008-04-20T16:34:46Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] That article says the opposite: [/QUOTE] I completely respectfully disagree. What’s the substantive difference between “certifiably insane” and “had been diagnosed as schizophrenic?” Here’s what “sane and fit to plead” means, FTR: From: [404 | NHS Education for Scotland](http://www.nes.scot.nhs.uk/mha/amp/cjs/considerations.htm) > [@](#): > > From a practical perspective, the following questions may be useful in determining the ‘sane and fit to plead’ status of an individual: > > ``` > * ‘Do you know what the police have said you have done?’ > * ‘When they ask you in Court if you did it, do you know what your plea will be?’ > * ‘What is the difference between saying “guilty” and “not guilty”?’ > * ‘Can you tell your lawyer what you think happened?’ > * ‘If a witness says something in Court you don’t agree with, who would you tell?’ > > ``` > > Features of an individual’s mental state due to his or her disorder to be taken into consideration include the individual’s: > > ``` > * ability to communicate – schizophrenic thought disorder, manic flight of ideas, depressive poverty of speech, dysphasia of dementia > * beliefs – for example, the individual may have delusions that he or she has a divine mission, and that the court process is irrelevant; psychosis, however, does not necessarily equate with insanity > * comprehension – may be impaired in dementia, acute confusion or learning disability > * attention and concentration – may be impaired in any of the conditions listed above > * memory – amnesia for the alleged offence is irrelevant in law, but short-term memory impairment due to organic impairment may be sufficiently severe to make it impossible for the individual to follow proceedings in court. > > ``` In essence all this means is that at the time of being in court they are able to understand the charges and participate in their defense _at the time they are in court, quite possibly while they are under medication/treatment_. It in no way says that a person is not “insane” under other or non-medicated/treated circumstances, especially if they’ve already been diagnosed as such. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/11 "2008-04-20T16:42:09Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] And it could have appeared to the negotiators that the situation inside was calmer and more controlled than was actually the case. [/QUOTE] From the article: > [@](#): > > The unnamed officer said: " **We knew what was going on, what he was doing to her throughout the night** , because we could hear the negotiations over our radios. > > "We were not given the order to go in. You can imagine how that made us feel, **knowing what was happening to that girl for hours and hours throughout the night.** > > "He put her through hell and we, effectively, could do nothing. The statements of the police themselves show that they did know what was going on, and chose not to act. Repeatedly raping a woman for 12 hours is not calmer and controlled. This really is one of those situations where the defense, if there is any at all, is unclear to me. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/12 "2008-04-20T16:58:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Something better than waiting for 12 hours of his abuse of her until he fell asleep, and even then only entering after being directed by the victim to force the door. At some point you have to weigh the odds, and take some initiative if someone is in mortal danger. Saying the police should have done “something better” isn’t a plan. Neither is saying they should “take some initiative”. You’re the commander of the police force. You’ve got the house surrounded and your team deployed. The suspect is inside the house holding a hostage at knifepoint. The doors and windows are all covered and barricaded. It will take you at least one minute to smash down the barricades and storm the house from the moment when you give the order. What do you do? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/13 "2008-04-20T17:19:27Z")
I’m not sure I see the GQ in here. Is it this? > [@](#): > > Is this story for real? Then the answer is yes. I’m not sure what the OPs intentions are. Is the question not clear or is this in the wrong forum? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/14 "2008-04-20T17:23:05Z")
Were the windows barricaded, though? I thought the police saw the woman writing in the condensation of a window, and that’s when they entered? Why was it not possible to get a hydraulic lifting crane/ladder and enter through the window (windows in Edinburgh are typically massive). Granted, I wasn’t there, but shootings by the police are big news in the UK. Sounds more like the commanding officer didn’t want to stick his neck on the line and be responsible for a potentially fatal shooting… ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/15 "2008-04-20T17:25:24Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson] From the article: > [@](#): > > The unnamed officer said: "We knew what was going on, what he was doing to her throughout the night, because we could hear the negotiations over our radios. > > "We were not given the order to go in. You can imagine how that made us feel, knowing what was happening to that girl for hours and hours throughout the night. > > "He put her through hell and we, effectively, could do nothing. The statements of the police themselves show that they did know what was going on, and chose not to act. [/QUOTE] A random report from one officer who was not a part of the negotiations, only an eavesdropper - and perhaps of only one half of the dialogue. I’m not saying the situation _did_ appear different to those in different positions, only that it may have done. [QUOTE=Una Persson] What’s the substantive difference between “certifiably insane” and “had been diagnosed as schizophrenic?” [/QUOTE] You are kidding, right? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/16 "2008-04-20T17:28:20Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Saying the police should have done “something better” isn’t a plan. Neither is saying they should “take some initiative”. You’re the commander of the police force. You’ve got the house surrounded and your team deployed. The suspect is inside the house holding a hostage at knifepoint. The doors and windows are all covered and barricaded. It will take you at least one minute to smash down the barricades and storm the house from the moment when you give the order. What do you do? [/QUOTE] Assuming it’s a ground level house ram an assault vehicle or large truck into the house to blow past the furniture barricade, then shoot him as quickly as possible, or swing in through a window etc., or come in through a side wall with a vehicle. If he was just holding her hostage and threatening that’s one thing, but actively raping her (IMO) takes it up a notch in terms of how aggressively you need to respond. A well trained police assault force should be able to get to her in seconds if she’s being held in a frame construction house in a known room, not a minute or two. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/17 "2008-04-20T17:33:45Z")
[QUOTE=astro] Assuming it’s a ground level house ram an assault vehicle or large truck into the house to blow past the furniture barricade, then shoot him as quickly as possible, or swing in through a window etc., or come in through a side wall with a vehicle. If he was just holding her hostage and threatening that’s one thing, but actively raping her (IMO) takes it up a notch in terms of how aggressively you need to respond. [/QUOTE] You are right. That’s how it is done in the movies. Real life, not so much. Which is why going in after a barricaded suspect is always the last resort. For the police everything has to go perfect for it to work. For the suspect, he only needs a few seconds to kill the hostage. ---
**Author:** ![Racer1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee59a6/32.png) [@Racer1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Racer1)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/18 "2008-04-20T17:35:54Z")
[QUOTE=fierra] If it were me, I’d like to see the officers that responded and stood by and did nothing allowing him to repeatedly rape me charged with being an accessory to rape, before the fact, since they knew the later ones were going to happen, had the means to stop it and did nothing. [/QUOTE] We’re talking about the “trained specialists” here, right? I don’t think you can blame the officers on the ground, because the article makes it clear they were specifically ordered not to go in. They have to trust that the people above know what they are doing, and imagine the outrage if an officer disobeyed orders and got her killed. Presumably, everyone involved followed the official police procedures, and if they didn’t, someone will have some difficult questions to answer. If the procedures were wrong, you’d hope they’ll be reviewed. The whole thing is sickening, but we have hindsight. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/19 "2008-04-20T17:36:52Z")
[QUOTE=astro] A well trained police assault force should be able to get to her in seconds if she’s being held in a frame construction house in a known room, not a minute or two. [/QUOTE] Frame construction houses are extremely rare here, and in any case the OP’s article makes it clear in the second sentence that it wasn’t a free-standing residence. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093/20 "2008-04-20T17:39:24Z")
[QUOTE=astro] Assuming it’s a ground level house ram an assault vehicle or large truck into the house to blow past the furniture barricade, then shoot him as quickly as possible, or swing in through a window etc., or come in through a side wall with a vehicle. If he was just holding her hostage and threatening that’s one thing, but actively raping her (IMO) takes it up a notch in terms of how aggressively you need to respond. A well trained police assault force should be able to get to her in seconds if she’s being held in a frame construction house in a known room, not a minute or two. [/QUOTE] Houses in Edinburgh aren’t made of paper. They’re typically tenement blocks with walls at least one and a half feet thick, made of solid stone. Ramming through one of these walls will require an impressive impact, to say the least, and risks bringing a five storey building down, potentially undermining the integrity of a whole row of flats. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-police-respond-then-listen-to-woman-being-raped-for-12-hours-before-acting/446093.md?page=2)