# British pronunciation of "foreign" words **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 29, 2003, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406 "2003-08-29T11:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/81 "2003-09-01T15:44:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > \*\*So explain fill-it for fillet, as in a hunk of fish. They live right across the channel, fer cryin’ out loud. 😉 Just a few minutes by tunnel. If you stand at the England end, you should be able to hear it pronounced correctly from the France end. > Peace, > mangeorge \*\* Hmm, “Fillet” is an English word, derived from “filet” - a French word. So, presumably, you pronounce “Mutton” as “Mouton” in the US, or “Beef” as “Bouf” since you don’t “mangle foreign words” (or speak with accents :rolleyes: ) The French have “Rosbif” (sp?) from “Roast beef” in return. And what the Japanese do to an English word when they incorporate it into their language is just mind-blowing 😃 [Japlish](http://www.coolslang.com/in/Japan/Japlish.php) (The “Blues” is “Buruusu” and Brad Pitt has his own _word_ “Burapi” :eek: ) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by J L.A. \* > They also say “jun-ta” instead of “hoon-ta”. And we also say:- “ **“Jeesus”** - I _love_ being told how we speak, (or that we drink warm beer or whatever), by people who couldn’t point to the UK on a map!” Rather than:- “ **“Hay-Sous”** - I _love_ being told how we speak, (or that we drink warm beer or whatever), by people who couldn’t point to the UK on a map!” :smack: (only kidding, I’m sure I stereotype 'merkins just as much as I get stereotyped - it’s all part of the rich tapestry that is the internet, or “inner-net” as you pronounce it 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![curly\_chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@curly\_chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curly_chick)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/82 "2003-09-01T16:15:45Z")
So is the boeuf, er, beef here that in British English a French word has been taken and its spelling anglicised and its pronunciation anglicised and that is wrong because Americans don’t say it that way. But when Americans write about the theater (sic) and talk about the thea **d** er, that’s fine? There is no right and wrong. It is all tradition and language evolution. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/83 "2003-09-01T18:07:42Z")
The capital of Vermont is Montpelier, pronounced (as God intended) Mont-PEEL-yer. Reminds me of the old joke: How do you pronounce the capital of Kentucky: LOO-ee-ville or LOO-ah-ville? ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/84 "2003-09-01T18:09:40Z")
Answer: Frankfurt. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/85 "2003-09-01T18:12:17Z")
Except I misspelled it (D’oh!) and for once the SDMB server was too fast: [Frankfort](http://www.officialusa.com/stateguides/capitals/kentucky-frankfort.html) ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/86 "2003-09-01T19:18:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shrinking Violet \* > \*\*I’m not the OP, but a Brit nevertheless … > > _Wooster_ (oo as in “look”) and _Redding_. Also, we tend to pronounce Worcestershire Sauce as just _Wooster Sauce_. > > Julie \*\* You misunderstood, I’m a Brit myself 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lobelia\_Overhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/54ee81/32.png) [@Lobelia\_Overhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobelia_Overhill)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/87 "2003-09-01T19:51:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by r\_k \* > \*\*Is the newsagent chain John Menzies pronounced this way too? I’ve only ever heard it pronouced “Menzees”, even though I’m aware of the correct spelling of the surname. It somehow seems affected applying it to a shop - like saying “W H Smythe”. 🙂 \*\* I used to work in John Menzies and we always pronounced it men-zees … although I did hear one woman call the place ming-is once ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/88 "2003-09-01T20:21:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by +MDI \* > \*\*How does the OP pronounce the British place name of Worcester? > Or Reading? \*\* If your talking about cities, I would say Wooster and Redding It’s hard for me do do an unambiguous phonetic spelling of Worcester. The first syllable I would say wuss (rhyming with puss as in pussy-cat) I should probably rephrase my original post. One day, someone brought a taco to the attention of an English speaker or speakers. He displayed the item and said Thees eez a tah-co, spelled T-A-C-O. Now is someone going to defend the idea that someone walked away from that meeting saying “Okay, T-A-C-O tack-o” ? No way. So how did this word morph? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/89 "2003-09-01T20:31:13Z")
You can throw all these old historically lost mispronunciations. It wasn’t my intention to open up the entire dictionary. I’m speaking of words that have come into common use in the recent past. With the media everywhere, I maintain there’s no real good reason to start mispronouncing a name when the sounds are perfectly valid in your native tongue and the spellings are reasonable. And as for Jaguar motor vehicles, the jaguar animal was around long before the company and was never pronounced jag-you-er. I leave you all with a quote from a certain Mel Brooks movie. “It’s pronounced FRONKENSTEEN” ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/90 "2003-09-01T20:31:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BwanaBob \* > \*\*One day, someone brought a taco to the attention of an English speaker or speakers. He displayed the item and said > > Thees eez a tah-co, spelled T-A-C-O. > > Now is someone going to defend the idea that someone walked away from that meeting saying > > “Okay, T-A-C-O tack-o” ? > > No way. So how did this word morph? \*\* Or, as there are few Spanish people in the UK, when tacos first appeared in the UK, person picks up item from supermarket shelf that says “Taco” on the packaging, and makes a reaonably intelligent guess as to how to pronounce it. Let’s have a third attempt at getting an answer to: what about Note-uh Dayme? One day someone brought the French cathedral up as a possible name for a college. He displayed a picture and said This iss Not-ruh Dam (with a slight rolling of the r), spelled N-O-T-R-E D-A-M-E. Now is someone going to defend the idea that someone walked away from that meeting saying “Okay, N-O-T-R-E D-A-M-E Note-uh Dayme” ? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/91 "2003-09-01T20:34:49Z")
Because there is NO way in English to pronounce “notre” properly. The “r” sounds does not exist. It becomes laziness when the sounds are outside a languages realm. And, after all, we still have supposedly educated people who pronounce “nuclear” as new-cue-ler. and I have Texan friends who insist on pronouncing “Doesn’t” as “dudn’t” Again, all outside of the intent of my OP, but the hi-jack has been interesting. ---
**Author:** ![trabi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@trabi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabi)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/92 "2003-09-01T21:16:31Z")
What hijack, Bwana Bob? Okay, so let’s sum up. From your original question: “I’ve noticed many British people tend to go out of their way to pronounce certain foreign words incorrectly” [sub]Bollocks: the British people in question are merely speaking their own particular form of English.[/sub] "For example, the words “pasta” and “taco”. These are Italian and Spanish words respectively. (no kidding)" [sub]No, they’re also English words (no kidding)[/sub] "They should be pronounceed “pah-stah” and “tah - ko”. [sub]Er… Not necessarily[/sub] "But the Brits tend to say “pass-tah” and “tack-o”. [sub]So bloody what?[/sub] Even in the US where we mangle foreign words with regularity these simple words are pronounced properly. [sub]What makes these words “simple?” The fact that you think you have a monopoly on their correct pronunciation? The fact that you live nearer to Mexico?[/sub] “So what gives?” [sub]Er… My question exactly[/sub] And another thing > [@](#): > > And as for Jaguar motor vehicles, the jaguar animal was around long before the company and was never pronounced jag-you-er. WRONG - I pronounce it exactly like that, and so do a lot of people I know. > [@](#): > > It wasn’t my intention to open up the entire dictionary. Or even any of it. > [@](#): > > Again, all outside of the intent of my OP, but the hi-jack has been interesting. What actually was the intent of your OP? To get a rise out of the Brits? I certainly 'ope you are not, ‘ow do you say,’ drooling?😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Griffin)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/93 "2003-09-01T21:51:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by curly chick \* > \*\ ***r\_k** , I like this little limerick, but aside from its Menzie cleverness, it shows that in English, at least, the vowel “a” has no one particular sound, so why should anyone presume that vowels in other languages have the same singular sound? > > Does wasp rhyme with gasp to _ **any** _ native English speaker? \*\* You’ve never been to Scotland have you. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/94 "2003-09-01T21:53:46Z")
Ha ha, Cockney. My friends from London were bi-lingual, they spoke cockney originally, and “proper” english to get along in the business world. They could be hard to understand sometimes. Actually, they were part of a movement to preserve the dialect. That was about 30 years ago. I wonder if they were successful? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/95 "2003-09-01T22:15:28Z")
the line of the thread seems to be that it’s only British and Americans who mispronounce foreign words; Do the French, Spanish, Germans etc. have perfect English pronounciation? orses fer corses… innit? ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/96 "2003-09-01T22:53:21Z")
**Skopo** _So … Qwik-zit … it’s still the officially sanctioned pronunciation in British English, even if it’s not said that way much anymore._ One point to remember about the OED is context. People say the name of the character Don Quixote as “Don Kee-Hotay”, but dictionaries are talking about something different: **a** Quixote (an English noun for someone who behaves like him) and that’s what’s pronounced “Quick-Zote”. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/97 "2003-09-01T23:20:29Z")
The pronouncer at m-w pronounces it both ways. It suprises me that english can take a proper name, and keeping the meaning, change the pronunciation that way. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/98 "2003-09-01T23:56:50Z")
Good point, **raygirvan** , and very interesting to hear that. It’s true that the OED definition is for a person who acts _like_ Quixote. But shouldn’t that pronunciation be based on a pronunciation of the original Quixote? Anyway, it seems to me that the English pronunciation for Cervantes’ character has been restored to a Spanish pronunciation at some point in recent history (say, in the last fifty years or so, maybe many more), while the term for the Quixote-like person still bears the anglicized pronunciation. This anglicization is also still evident in the adjective “quixotic” which in both American and British English should be pronounced “qwizotic” (not “kee-hoe-tik” or anything like that). I suspect that the anglicized “Qwik-zit” was indeed applied to the Cervantes character in pre-20th century English, just as Don Juan was pronounced “jew-an” (I don’t think the anglicized “Juan” was restricted to Byron’s poem). I was indeed aware that nowadays, the name “Juan” is almost universally pronounced in its Spanish form like “hwahn,” unless you’re talking about Bryon’s character. From this thread, I have now learned that the Cervantes’ character is almost universally pronounced as “kee-HOE-tay,” with the “traditional” anglicized pronunciation fallen by the wayside. I think the most important thing to take from all this is that both English (in all its forms) is a living, constantly developing language. In current usage, proper names are increasingly given their native pronunciation in both British and American English. I’m perfectly OK with that. Of course, we don’t do this with many city and place names (as I mentioned before, we anglicize “Firenze, Italia” as “Florence, Italy”). And, at least today, there’s nothing wrong with anglicizing those place names, either, so long as there’s a longstanding tradition for doing so. It’s all about convention, after all. Another thing to take from this is that dictionary editors on both sides of the pond need to update their entries for “Quixote”! Consider this example from [The American Heritage Book of English Usage](http://www.bartleby.com/64/pages/page232.html): > [@](#): > > Quixote is generally pronounced (kwIk’set) in British English and (ke-ho’te), an attempt at the Spanish pronunciation, in American English. And, before someone brings up “The Man of La Mancha” and _really_ hijacks **BwanaBob** ’s thread… that’s the last thing I’m going to say about “Quixote.” ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/99 "2003-09-02T00:49:59Z")
trabi- You’re way out of line here. I notice you had no problem with me saying Americans mangle words every day, but when I “dare” suggest Brits do it, then somehow that’s wrong. We’re all supposed to have at least one layer of skin. Lighten up. IMHO, I reject the notion that somehow when a “foreign” word is absorbed into another language, that all’s fair in the pronunciation game. That excuse works for words generations removed. I don’t buy the theory that taco shells miraculously appeared on supermarket shells in Britain without the word ever being mentioned, with people deciding to call it a tack-o. Someone had to hear it, see it’s spelling, see that the spelling is not alien to English, and yet deliberately change it’s pronunciation to suit their own fancy. That’s how I see it. I’m not saying it hasn’t happened on this side of the pond. But that wasn’t the OP. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406/100 "2003-09-02T02:54:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skopo \* > \*\*I’ve heard “Michelangelo” pronounced as though it were “Michael Angelo” (as, indeed, it was usually rendered in eighteenth-century English). \*\* What is the proper pronunciation? Mish-el-angelo? I admit to being clueless here. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Merrin \* > \*\*The real point here is how did we mangle our own words so much, any guesses on the pronounciation of “Slough” or “Berwick Upon Tweed”, answers on a postcard please. \*\* “Slow” and…uh…wild guess here… “Berkun Tweed”? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by +MDI \* > \*\*How does the OP pronounce the British place name of Worcester? > Or Reading? \*\* I’m not the OP, but… is “Wooster” (oo as in wood, not moon) and “red-ing” correct? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-foreign-words/198406.md?page=6)