# British pronunciation of lieutenant?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 4, 2001, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344 "2001-10-04T07:27:20Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@achterover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/achterover)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2001, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/21 "2001-10-04T14:46:47Z")
“V” was written for “U” up until fairly recently…mightn’t that have something to do with it?
Johan
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### Author:  [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2001, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/22 "2001-10-04T16:57:53Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DVous Means \*
> Bosun is an abreviation of boatswain.
I don’t believe that’s true, at least in the U.S. Navy. This enlisted rating is spelled “Boatswain’s Mate” and only _pronounced_ “bosun’s mate.” Anyone who writes “bosun” is spelling the word incorrectly, or using written slang. (The abbreviation for Boatswain’s Mate is “BM.”
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### Author:  [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/23 "2001-10-04T17:34:28Z")
\*\*
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by grimpixie \*
> \*\*…the French word “lieu”, which is pronounced in French as it is spelled.
\*\*
[/QUOTE]
Is that the ONLY French word pronounced as it is spelled? :d&r: \*\*
[/QUOTE]
I see I must once again defend the much-maligned French. With the exception of S at the end of words (which is usually silent), French is pronounced almost always exactly how it is spelled. It’s just that it is pronounced _in French_ - not in English. English speakers see all those vowels one after the other and get nervous. But really, if you can sound out the French alphabet, and you learn what sounds are represented by which dipthongs, you can pronounce pretty much anything.
-Sincerely, Bunny, Defender of Misunderstood French Stuff
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2001, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/24 "2001-10-04T17:52:13Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by missbunny \*
> **English speakers see all those vowels one after the other and get nervous.**
Yes. We are spoiled by a language in which the vowels (usually) sound different. 😉
In French’s defense, I can usually manage to spell it by ear fairly accurately while Wife, who can actually speak some French, cannot.
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### Author:  [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2001, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/25 "2001-10-04T17:53:48Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Rodd Hill \*
> \*\*Featherstonehaugh: pronounced “Fanshaw”
> Bucclueuch: pronounced “Beauly”
> Menzies: pronounced “Mingus” (at least by older folks)
> Culross: pronounced “Kewross” \*\*
Buccleuch is ‘Buckloo’ (at least it is in Edinburgh).
There’s also Cholmondeley (Chumley), Caius (Keys) (there you go **Cliffy** ) and Milngavvie (Mulgay).
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### Author:  [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2001, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/26 "2001-10-04T18:19:50Z")
In French, there are also very few exceptions to pronounciation: “eau” is always pronounced like a long O; “ais” is always pronounced EH; “ai” is always pronounced AY - no matter where in the word the letters are located. Very unlike English, where, e.g., “ough” is pronounced OW, O, OFF, UH, and probably other ways. In English (both American and British), most of the time you have to memorize how to pronounce the individul words; in French you can pronounce anything and spell anything correctly just by learning the alphabet.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread.
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### Author:  [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2001, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/27 "2001-10-04T20:07:00Z")
I was in London with some friends recently. There was some confusion at one point because we agreed to meet at a place on the map called Leicester Square, but the tour bus only went to Lester Square. 😉
–Cliffy
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### Author:  [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2001, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/28 "2001-10-04T21:10:36Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by irishgirl \*
> the oxford college that sounds like keys is, i think Caius.
It’s a Cambridge College, Gonville & Caius, popularly known as “Caius” and pronounced “Keys”. It’s not realy a case of peculiar English poper names: one of the founders was an Englishman called Keys who had decided for some reason to Latinise the spelling of his name to Caius, but retained the original pronunciation.
[Insert joke about characteristic pretentiousness of Cambridge men.]
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### Author:  [@Motog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motog)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2001, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/29 "2001-10-04T23:50:59Z")
Originally posted by Mersavets
> [@](#):
>
> ```
> Originally posted by Rodd Hill
> Menzies: pronounced "Mingus" (at least by older folks)
>
> That explains something for me. The longest serving Australian Prime Minister was Robert Menzies. His
> nickname was Ming but I always assumed it was because of his resemblance to Ming the Merciless from the
> Flash Gordon series which would have been popular during part of his time in office.
>
> ```
Nah, it was always a reference to the character in Flash Gordon rather than the British pronunciation. My political history textbooks are full of contemporary cartoons of Menzies drawn as Ming the Merciless
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### Author:  [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2001, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/30 "2001-10-05T12:30:19Z")
With ref to the OP. I grew up with the British Army and I can tell you that saying “leftennant” would have been a bit ifra dig, downright pikie in fact. In yet another example of mad vowel strangling, the correct pronunciation by Gentleman Officers was “Lettenant” with no “f” sound at all.
However the depridations of a public school and Sandhurst education toward the English language cannot be overstated.
I have a friend who’s name is St John. It’s said singoeon.
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### Author:  [@walor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/walor)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2001, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/31 "2001-10-05T12:55:43Z")
How about Colin (as in Powell)? Some say ‘Kollin’ whilst some say ‘Coalin’.
Also, what about Mainwaring (pronounced Mannering)?
I’m fairly sure that Sergeant Major is often pronounced… $!&&%$£.
Sorry. To be serious, I know that it often comes out as Sahtmayjah!
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### Author:  [@Walrus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walrus)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2001, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/32 "2001-10-05T12:56:35Z")
Of other “different” pronounciations, please don’t forget:
Belvoir = “Beaver”
Beauchamp = “Beecham”
Beaulieu = “Bewley”
regards
Walrus
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### Author:  [@walor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/walor)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2001, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/33 "2001-10-05T13:03:02Z")
Also:
Berkshire = Barkshire
Missouri = Missourah
Arkansas = Arkansaw
???
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### Author:  [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2001, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/34 "2001-10-05T14:42:22Z")
Just to add to the confusion, lieutenant is pronounced Leuftenant in the British Army and l’tenant in the Royal Navy.
[http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/content/375.html](http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/content/375.html)
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2001, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/35 "2001-10-05T14:56:21Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Walrus \*
> **Of other “different” pronounciations, please don’t forget:
> Belvoir = “Beaver”
> Beauchamp = “Beecham”
> Beaulieu = "Bewley"**
So the Army base on US 1 between DC and the Marine base at Quantico is really “Fort Beaver”? 🙂
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### Author:  [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2001, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/36 "2001-10-05T15:13:56Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by walor \*
> \*\*Also:
>
> Berkshire = Barkshire
> Missouri = Missourah
> Arkansas = Arkansaw
>
> ??? \*\*
Well I never; I’d always thought “Missourah” was a Grandpa Simpson idiosyncrasy.
Regarding Featherstonehaugh, Beauchamp, Magdalane (College) etc., these have aristocratic connections. I think that their odd pronounciations may be intended to catch out the uninitiated (ie the lower classes). I haven’t heard Buccleuch pronounced as Beauly, but it would not surprise me as the Buccleuchs are among the biggest arisocratic landowners in Scotland.
The “z” in Menzies, Culzean, Dalzel etc represents the obsolete letter “yogh” (seriously), which I think was used a bit like a y or a g and looked a bit like a 3 (or a z with a tail). When printing, people often didn’t have an actual yogh so they used a zed since it looked similar. This is also the explanation for “Ye” instead of “The”; the letter “thorn” (I’m not making this up) represented the th sound and looked a bit like a y. So when “Ye” was written instead of “The” it was never pronounced that way.
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### Author:  [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2001, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/37 "2001-10-05T17:37:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by robby \*
> I don’t believe that’s true, at least in the U.S. Navy. This enlisted rating is spelled “Boatswain’s Mate” and only _pronounced_ “bosun’s mate.” Anyone who writes “bosun” is spelling the word incorrectly, or using written slang.
Verbal abbreviation, not written
Boatswain -\> boatswun -\> boaswun -\> bosun
Large, frequently used words without distinct syllables tend to mutate over use. That’s probably what happened to all the oddball English location names and it’s just that nobody remembers the verbal evolution anymore.
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### Author:  [@The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Gazoo)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2001, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/38 "2001-10-05T17:49:30Z")
[QUOTE]
\*Originally posted by G. Odoreida \*
\*\*
> [@](#):
>
> Regarding Featherstonehaugh, Beauchamp, Magdalane (College) etc., these have aristocratic connections. I think that their odd pronounciations may be intended to catch out the uninitiated (ie the lower classes). I haven’t heard Buccleuch pronounced as Beauly, but it would not surprise me as the Buccleuchs are among the biggest arisocratic landowners in Scotland.
>
> The “z” in Menzies, Culzean, Dalzel etc represents the obsolete letter “yogh” (seriously), which I think was used a bit like a y or a g and looked a bit like a 3 (or a z with a tail). When printing, people often didn’t have an actual yogh so they used a zed since it looked similar. This is also the explanation for “Ye” instead of “The”; the letter “thorn” (I’m not making this up) represented the th sound and looked a bit like a y. So when “Ye” was written instead of “The” it was never pronounced that way. \*\*
yogh and thorn?? sounds like some kind of odd programming language. So, when the Renaissance Fair people start up with their “Would YE like to …”, we can really slap them around. 😃
This is great information. Any other odd letters in Olde English? Why the “e” on the ende of olde? Thanks, G. Odereida.
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### Author:  [@daffodil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/daffodil)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2001, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/39 "2001-10-05T19:16:33Z")
What about \* your \*name, achterover? 😉
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### Author:  [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2001, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-pronunciation-of-lieutenant/85344/40 "2001-10-06T02:22:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Originally posted by The Great Gazoo
> This is great information. Any other odd letters in Olde English? Why the “e” on the ende of olde? Thanks, G. Odereida. \*\*
Glad to be of service, Great Gazoo. The English language went through a “Great Vowel Shift” about 600 years ago. One of the consequences was that suddenly many words now had a silent “e” at the end. Previously a word like “tide” was pronounced something like “teeduh”; the spelling system we use now is the phonetic system from Chaucer’s time.
People became confused when they realised they were now using a non-phonetic spelling system (the change was perhaps gradual enough not to be noticed). Previously they could make an accurate stab at spelling from the pronounciation; now they couldn’t. Silent "e"s were added to many words (like “olde”) erroneously because they were just guessing; these words previously never had an “e” at the end because they were never pronounced with one. At some point the mess must have been cleared up. The words we have now that have silent "e"s (have, were, tide, time, come, wine, five, nine etc etc) were in the past pronounced more or less as they are written.
This is probably as clear as mud. My knowledge comes fom a History of English module I did a decade ago; I think we are now at the outer limits of said knowledge.
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