# British slang: why is a fight called a "Barney"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 21, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256 "2005-02-21T23:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![fishbicycle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aeb1de/32.png) [@fishbicycle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishbicycle)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/1 "2005-02-21T23:32:23Z")
This question must have a factual answer, so I’ll post it in GQ. If a mod feels it’s more appropriate elsewhere, please feel free to move it. “Are you having a Barney? I’ll hold your coat.” I’ve heard a fight described as “Barney” several times and have wondered about its origins. Is it rhyming slang? Is it named after a famous fighter? Curious in FL ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/2 "2005-02-21T23:34:23Z")
Well, if Don Cheadle in _Ocean’s 11_ can be believed, it’s rhyming slang. Barney -\> Barney Rubble -\> trouble ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/3 "2005-02-21T23:35:18Z")
Never heard that when I lived in England as a kid but one thing popped into my head - “Barney Rubble” rhymes with “Trouble”, shortened to “Barney”. …and quick Google search appears to confirm this: [http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/search.asp?expressionid=1831&keyword=Barney%20Rubble&method=slang](http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/search.asp?expressionid=1831&keyword=Barney%20Rubble&method=slang) ---
**Author:** ![fishbicycle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aeb1de/32.png) [@fishbicycle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishbicycle)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/4 "2005-02-21T23:37:48Z")
Thank you! You folks are quick! A mod may close this thread now. Thanks again! ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/5 "2005-02-22T00:04:36Z")
Did the Cockneys really know who Barney Rubble is? ---
**Author:** ![violacrane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c57346/32.png) [@violacrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/violacrane)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/6 "2005-02-22T00:14:13Z")
Gorblimey howsyerfather they do have tellies in Cockneyland. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/7 "2005-02-22T00:27:26Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > Did the Cockneys really know who Barney Rubble is? I don’t know, but _The Flintstones_ was televised here in Australia, and “Barney” is not uncommon here. I actually would have thought it predated the cartoon, but maybe not - it’s only used by older Australians, but then again the show ain’t exactly young now either. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/8 "2005-02-22T00:34:37Z")
My grandfather (born 1908) used to use it quite frequently, so it obviously pre-dates any rhyming slang references associated with the Flintstones cartoons. He always claimed that it was Irish in origin. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/9 "2005-02-22T00:37:20Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > He always claimed that it was Irish in origin. That’s what I’d always assumed, actually. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/10 "2005-02-22T00:45:14Z")
While even Cockneys will be familiar with _The Flintstones_, the usage in English slang has nothing to do with Barney, Fred, etc. From Partridge’s _Dictionary of Historical Slang_ (1937; Penguin, 1972): > [@](#): > > **barney, bit of.** A scuffle, fight or heated argument; esp. rowdyism in a public house: late C.19-20. More generally, **barney** has various meanings, clustered around cheating or rowdyness. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/11 "2005-02-22T01:34:00Z")
[This page](http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/13/messages/932.html) seems to back up the Irish theory: > [@](#): > > : From Eric Partridge, “Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English”: > : BARNEY. A jollification, esp. if rowdy; an outing: from late 1850’s; obsolete. J. C. Hotten, ‘The Slang Dictionary,’ 1st ed. ? ex ‘Barney,’ typical of a noisy Irishman (cf. ‘paddy,’ anger . . .). --2. ?hence, crowd; low slang or colloquial (–1859). . . . --3. Humbug, cheating: low (1964). Hotten, 3rd ed. This sense may have a different origin: cf. ‘“come! come! that’s Barney Castle!” . . . an expression often uttered when a person is heard making a bad excuse in a still worse cause’, recorded in the ‘Denham Tracts,’ 1846-59, Apperson, whose other two Barney proverbs suggest that the ultimate reference is to ‘the holding of Barnard Castle by Sir George Bowes during the Rising of the North in 1569’, E. M. Wright, ‘Rustic Speech,’ 1913. --4. Hence, an unfair sporting event, esp. a boxing match (–1882); ob. --5. ‘Eyewash’ (1884+). --6. A quarrel; a fight; grafters’ (–1934). Philip Allingham. Prob. ex sense 1. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/12 "2005-02-22T01:43:30Z")
Though, equally, Partridge’s entry on **barney** can be seen to support a derivation from _Barnard Castle_, which is hardly Irish. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/13 "2005-02-22T01:50:43Z")
No because the Barnard Castle meaning refers to meaning number 3 - “humbug, cheating, low”. And it specifically says that this may have a different origin. Barney, in the sense of fight, comes from number 6 which is rooted in number 1 - “typical of a noisy Irishman” ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/14 "2005-02-22T01:59:45Z")
I’m really not convinced that there’s an absolute line between a meaning that implies cheating and one that implies a punchup, either in 19th century Ireland or County Durham in the same period. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/15 "2005-02-22T02:59:00Z")
maybe. The Irish source seems strong though. In any case, can I just say that I have absolutely fallen in love with the whole concept of the phrase: ‘“come! come! that’s Barney Castle!” . . . an expression often uttered when a person is heard making a bad excuse in a still worse cause’, The idea of making a bad excuse in a still worse cause just sounds hilarious to me. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/16 "2005-02-22T11:40:41Z")
Is the late 20th century etymology ‘Barney Gumble’ - ‘rumble’? ---
**Author:** ![Fromage\_A\_Trois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fromage\_A\_Trois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fromage_A_Trois)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/17 "2005-02-22T13:36:56Z")
> [@Jojo](#): > > 1st ed. ? ex ‘Barney,’ typical of a noisy Irishman (cf. ‘paddy,’ anger . . .). Although I find this quite hard to believe, living in England I very often hear both “barney” and “paddy” used to describe commotion. And Paddy is definitely used to indicate stereotypical Irishness. Just because I find it hard to believe doesn’t make it impossible 🙂 Just to throw another (unsubstantiated) idea into the mix, could Barney perhaps come from Blarney - as in “kiss the Blarney Stone”? ---
**Author:** ![Fromage\_A\_Trois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fromage\_A\_Trois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fromage_A_Trois)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/18 "2005-02-22T13:49:48Z")
> [@bras0978](#): > > Just to throw another (unsubstantiated) idea into the mix, could Barney perhaps come from Blarney - as in “kiss the Blarney Stone”? I think I should make it clear what I mean - I’m not trying to say that kissing the Blarney Stone leads to a fight. I mean that it is closely associated with being Irish, which Partridge suggests makes one “rowdy”. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/19 "2005-02-22T14:16:19Z")
We certainly do use the phrase “to have a paddy” but it doesn’t mean a fight - it means to completely lose your rag and act out. I have no idea where “Barney” comes from - but my dad used to use it and he predated the Flinstones by decades. Personally I prefer “pagga” or “Donnybrook” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256/20 "2005-02-22T15:23:16Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > Did the Cockneys really know who Barney Rubble is? The Cockneys still exist, you know. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-slang-why-is-a-fight-called-a-barney/291256.md?page=2)