# British words in code **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 4, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045 "2014-06-04T17:52:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/101 "2014-06-09T21:09:35Z")
I think it’s a Northern/Scots thing. My mother came from the North of England and my father from the South - so I have been instilled with a curious and sometimes conflicting blend of these sorts of terminologies. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/102 "2014-06-09T23:12:58Z")
I suspect ‘punter’ might derive from the Irish word for a pound: a punt. It is associated with horse racing and betting and horse trading. At the races, the bookies and often dealing with gamblers waving pound notes at them to place a bet. Hence punters. Respectable buyers of services from professionals are ‘clients’. No so very respectable buyers of services from bookies and prostitutes are ‘punters’ A class snobbery thing? Meat tea? No! Mint tea, is very popular with the ladies. Breakfast, Dinner and Tea is Northern English Breakfast, Lunch and Supper is Southern English Of course if you are a Hobbit inhabiting that fictional parody of England, The Shire, mealtimes are more extensive. Breakfast, Second Breakfast, Elevenses, Lunch, Afternoon Tea, Dinner and Supper. Those little guys in Lord of the Rings obviously had a higher metabolic rate. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/103 "2014-06-10T01:24:26Z")
The etymology of “punter” is deeply obscure, but it certainly isn’t from the Gaelic _punt_, which is a modern word. It’s probably ultimately from _punctum_, Latin, a pinprick or point. (“Puncture” is from the same root.) By the early seventeenth century, the french _pointe_ or _ponte_ was being used to refer to an ace card, presumably because it was marked with one pip or point. It then came to refer specifically to the player who, in a game of faro, plays against the bank (and who could always beat the bank if holding an ace); from there, to one who plays against the bank in any card game; from there, to any gambler playing against a bookmaker (and, therefore, to the customers of bookmakers); and from there, to any customer, but especially to customers of trades conducted with a degree of informality - gambling, prostitution, market trading. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/104 "2014-06-10T04:38:33Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That’s when you “lie back and think of England.” 😃 I would but I have no idea who’s on the team\*. > [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Ahh. I finally remember now to ask the most important question of all. What is it about the Brits and tea? I drink a few cups of coffee during the day. It tastes good (with milk) and it gives me a nice little energy buzz. But tea doesn’t do a darn thing for me. Yet the English treat it as if it were some kind of holy water. What in the world is up with that? Substitute “American beer” for “tea” and “real beer” for “coffee” and ask yourself the same question. > [@Eliahna](#): > > We (Australians) call Americans “Seppos”, which is indeed from septic tank = yank, however the interpretation that we’re calling Americans “pieces of shit” is being too literal. In my 47 years as an Australian I have never heard any Australian use the term “Seppo” to mean an American except in a conversation about the slang term that Australians (allegedly) use to mean an American. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > No, punter’s neutral. Informal, but not derogatory. It’s potentially very slightly derogatory in the sense that it means “average, unsophisticated consumer of goods or services”. You would never use the term about, say, a truly knowledgeable buyer of antiques. So it can be insulting if the subject considers themselves to be better than ordinary, which of course many people do. \*Thanks Billy ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/105 "2014-06-10T04:59:28Z")
Tea and supper are very different meals. The upper classes will have both. (Yes that is four meals.) Supper is taken very late in the evening, basically before bed, and after the evening’s activities. Tea would be taken late afternoon, and is more a large snack, to fortify one for the evening ahead. Of course the proletariat will be sound asleep in their hovels, without the benefit of light long before the upper classes take supper. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/106 "2014-06-10T07:45:05Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > In my 47 years as an Australian I have never heard any Australian use the term “Seppo” to mean an American except in a conversation about the slang term that Australians (allegedly) use to mean an American. I have, but it’s not common, and the folks that use it are dying off. > [@Princhester](#): > > _(Punter is)_ potentially very slightly derogatory in the sense that it means “average, unsophisticated consumer of goods or services”. You would never use the term about, say, a truly knowledgeable buyer of antiques. So it can be insulting if the subject considers themselves to be better than ordinary, which of course many people do. It’s not a term I use (I’m not English), but I’ve never thought of it to be derogatory. More in terms of “gambling at life”, in a way. A bit like the Australian “battler”. Everyone is out there, trying their luck in the real world to make the best of it. A punter, in other words. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/107 "2014-06-10T07:53:59Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Breakfast, Dinner and Tea is Northern English > Breakfast, Lunch and Supper is Southern English Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner in this (central) part of the South > [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Tea and supper are very different meals. The upper classes will have both. (Yes that is four meals.) Supper is taken very late in the evening, basically before bed, and after the evening’s activities. Tea would be taken late afternoon, and is more a large snack, to fortify one for the evening ahead. Of course the proletariat will be sound asleep in their hovels, without the benefit of light long before the upper classes take supper. Concur. Supper is a night-time meal - normally a fairly light one - and tends (in my experience) to be more likely a social thing than other meals - i.e. cheese and crackers as a supper with friends. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/108 "2014-06-10T08:01:48Z")
It’s weird here. There seems to be no consensus. In my family, as a kid: breakfast, lunch, tea (or sometimes dinner). If there was a rare late night snack, that was supper. Then I found some of my schoolmates calling lunch “dinner”. That just weirded me out, and still does. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/109 "2014-06-10T08:05:18Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > It’s not a term I use (I’m not English), but I’ve never thought of it to be derogatory. More in terms of “gambling at life”, in a way. A bit like the Australian “battler”. Everyone is out there, trying their luck in the real world to make the best of it. A punter, in other words. This could be an Australian thing. “Punt” is in common use in Australia to describe a running kick in football - the running player drops the ball from his hands and kicks it before it hits the ground. It’s frequently part of an attacking move - the ball is punted from the midfield to the foward area where (hopefully) a teammate will receive it and attempt a goal. Or, the punter may himself be attempting a goal, even while under pressure from the defending team. And I think this sense colours the word “punter” for Australians - a punter is trying, he hasn’t given up, he hopes to acheive something, he’s working towards a goal. Whereas this context is lacking in the UK. From its original gambling roots, a punter in the UK is trusting to luck, opening himself up to chance, but not necessarily making any kind of effort or bringing any kind of skill to bear. He is hoping that fate will give him what he cannot achieve himself. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/110 "2014-06-10T08:42:38Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > It’s weird here. There seems to be no consensus. It’s easy. Dinner is a hot meal, typically involving meat, vegetables and some dietary starch, and usually at least one other course - soup, dessert, something like that. You can have your dinner at lunchtime, or at teatime. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/111 "2014-06-10T08:58:17Z")
That’s probably somewhat true, but usage has blurred it to the point of lovely confusion. (and thus, ‘dinnertime’ is also a thing, but what that thing is, isn’t universal) ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/112 "2014-06-10T09:15:45Z")
Well, just as you can have your dinner at lunchtime or at teatime, so you can call that time “dinnertime” instead. But - the confusing bit - you don’t have to be consistent. You can call the meal you take in the middle of the day “dinner” if it conforms to the meat-and-two-veg model already outlined, but still refer to that time as “lunchtime”. Or, if you have your meat-and-two-veg later on, you can still call it “dinner”, but call the occasion “teatime”. Or, in either of those cases, you can call the occasion “dinnertime”. But it doesn’t work the other way around. If you call the occasion “dinnertime”, then the meal that you are eating has to be “dinner”, not “lunch” or “tea”. What could be simpler? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/113 "2014-06-10T09:25:18Z")
> [@ItWasAGoodIdeaAtTheTime](#): > > With a tub of M&S chocolate mini bites that whole fling with self-determination might have been a historical footnote of the continued British Empire… Amusing username/post combo. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/114 "2014-06-10T09:25:51Z")
Just to make things even simpler, it should be noted that the naming of meals and mealtimes isn’t a simple US/UK divide. Within the US there are regional differences in how meals and mealtimes are named; within the UK, both regional and class differences. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/115 "2014-06-10T09:35:35Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But it doesn’t work the other way around. If you call the occasion “dinnertime”, then the meal that you are eating has to be “dinner”, not “lunch” or “tea”. That doesn’t mean much though (if even true), except that people are generally consistent to their own terminology. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/116 "2014-06-10T09:38:35Z")
Yeah, to me, this isn’t a national, or even a regional, thing. Seems to be family by family. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/117 "2014-06-10T09:54:33Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner in this (central) part of the South > > Concur. Supper is a night-time meal - normally a fairly light one - and tends (in my experience) to be more likely a social thing than other meals - i.e. cheese and crackers as a supper with friends. Supper in Upper and Middle Middle Classes usually means the main meal eaten in the evening. Invites are to Supper rather than dinner parties. Oxford and Cambridge especially. Their meal pattern is breakfast, lunch (or luncheon), tea (meaning drink and a snack on return from work, and supper in the evening. For amusement, invites to supper are sent on plain white embossed cards called stiffies! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/118 "2014-06-10T09:57:42Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > This could be an Australian thing. “Punt” is in common use in Australia to describe a running kick in football - the running player drops the ball from his hands and kicks it before it hits the ground. It’s frequently part of an attacking move - the ball is punted from the midfield to the foward area where (hopefully) a teammate will receive it and attempt a goal. Or, the punter may himself be attempting a goal, even while under pressure from the defending team. And I think this sense colours the word “punter” for Australians - a punter is trying, he hasn’t given up, he hopes to acheive something, he’s working towards a goal. > > Whereas this context is lacking in the UK. From its original gambling roots, a punter in the UK is trusting to luck, opening himself up to chance, but not necessarily making any kind of effort or bringing any kind of skill to bear. He is hoping that fate will give him what he cannot achieve himself. Punt is also an English term for a kick. In Soccer it means a toe kick rather than an inside foot kick. In rugby it is exactly the same as Aussie rules- a drop from hands directly onto the foot for a kick. Taking a chance is often called taking a punt at something. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/119 "2014-06-10T10:41:36Z")
Don’t forget St Matthew’s Meal! (and Après Lunch) ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045/120 "2014-06-10T12:00:08Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Don’t forget St Matthew’s Meal! Interesting. I hadn’t heard that one before. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/british-words-in-code/690045.md?page=7)