# BritishAir: Rot in hell. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570 "2010-12-17T23:55:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/61 "2010-12-22T15:09:40Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > You’ll be delighted to know that UK news agencies are reporting that Heathrow cut snow defence funding this year by two-thirds. Not to mention the refusal of the Army’s offer of help to move the snow. Because they’d been handling it all so well at that point. ---
**Author:** ![acetylene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@acetylene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/acetylene)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/62 "2010-12-22T17:36:51Z")
Is all of this really caused by a mere 5 inches of snow? I have heard that figure on two different news broadcasts but it must be mistaken. Please tell me it took more than 5 inches of snow to cause all this chaos. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/63 "2010-12-22T17:57:21Z")
5 inches of snow in London, where it’s unusual for it to snow _at all_, let alone settle, is quite a lot. It’s nearly as far north as Buffalo but far more temperate thanks to maritime influence, so snow preparedness is practically on the same level of importance as hurricane preparedness. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/64 "2010-12-22T18:04:36Z")
I lived in Oxford for seven years and we didn’t get five inches of snow _for the entire time I lived there_. Not five inches of snow in a single snowstorm, five inches of snow total, in seven years. So, yeah, I think five inches of snow in a single storm is unusual enough for southern England that Heathrow might be unprepared. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/65 "2010-12-22T18:24:04Z")
> [@acetylene](#): > > Is all of this really caused by a mere 5 inches of snow? I have heard that figure on two different news broadcasts but it must be mistaken. Please tell me it took more than 5 inches of snow to cause all this chaos. Five inches, that’s it. But it was heavy, they whined. There was tons and tons of it. Crap, the supermarkets in NJ cleared more than that. Daughter is home, and brought some papers. It seems that Heathrow got bought by a Spanish company, and they decided to save money to pay off their loan by skimping on snow removal preparations. Gatwick spent about 9 million pounds over last year, Heathrow spent 500,000 pounds, and in total had a smaller snow removal budget than Gatwick, though it is much bigger. There are calls for heads to roll, like the head of BAA. Someone in the paper said that when it snows five inches in Denmark, people think about checking their snow tires. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/66 "2010-12-22T18:57:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s nearly as far north as Buffalo but far more temperate thanks to maritime influence, so snow preparedness is practically on the same level of importance as hurricane preparedness. Buffalo is 42 degrees North, London is 51 degrees North. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/67 "2010-12-22T19:26:54Z")
> [@acetylene](#): > > Is all of this really caused by a mere 5 inches of snow? I have heard that figure on two different news broadcasts but it must be mistaken. Please tell me it took more than 5 inches of snow to cause all this chaos. How disruptive snow can be depends on how used to it the area is. Many places get snow very rarely. 5 inches of snow in San Francisco would cause chaos as well. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/68 "2010-12-22T19:41:17Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Another datapoint = on the bus to the hotel which my wife booked for her, my daughter met a nice American woman with three small kids. She is married, and is traveling, to a guy from Ghana. He did not have a British visa, since he had not expected to do anything but change planes, and so was not allowed off the airport and was in fact put into detention. At least he has food and a bed - I hope. Oh man, that _sucks_. I hadn’t even considered that aspect of this gigantic mess. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > First, I sympathize with you and your family, especially if your daughter is a minor. > > However. (you knew that was coming, right?) Why should British Airways go out of their way to accommodate people’s fucked-up travel plans due to something entirely out of their control? Why should the customers be charged with any less of a degree of preparedness for low-probability events? Other airports and/or airlines across Europe went well out of their way to accommodate stranded travelers. [Schiphol put out 1,700 cots for people to sleep on](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/141218). In Copenhagen, someone opened some meeting rooms and provided hundreds of chairs for people to at least be able to _sit_ in in the queues, instead of on the floor (my husband witnessed this first-hand, so no link). > [@DianaG](#): > > See, I’m of the opinion that “If you can’t get me out of here, at least give me back my stuff.” is a completely reasonable request. If the planes were actually moving, someone would be out there unloading luggage at midnight in unseasonably cold weather. It’s their job, and they need to be doing it. Sometimes weather conditions really do make it dangerous to load and/or unload luggage from airplanes. > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > With the possible exception of Etihad, Singapore, Qatar I couldn’t think of any airline particularly better in service. When I then factor in that BA actually pay their staff a reasonable wage, whereas the others really don’t, it’s no surprise that they’re not the cheapest. > > For true suck, KLM, Alitalia, Delta, America, Air France…ooh, I could name quite a lot that make BA seem damned good. I just had the displeasure of flying Air France for the first time. They’re French, but I didn’t expect such piss-poor attitude from flight attendants. I’ve never flown Etihad, Singapore or Qatar, but Scandinavian Airlines kicks all kinds of butt. Not only is their customer service unbelievably awesome, but they have the Best Airplane Food Ever! > [@Voyager](#): > > Someone in the paper said that when it snows five inches in Denmark, people think about checking their snow tires. That’s where I am right now! And I’m _damn_ lucky I got here. I was scheduled to fly LAX to New York JFK to Amsterdam to Copenhagen on Friday the 17th. On Thursday morning (5AM!) I got a call from KLM that they had oversold one of my flights, and were looking for volunteers to change their itinerary to take 2 Air France flights; LAX to Paris CDG, then on to CPH. Well, that cut out one stop entirely, _and_ they offered a $400 voucher, so why the heck not?! I don’t know how I got to be one of the lucky ones they called to volunteer, but if they hadn’t contacted me I’d’ve been one of those overnighting for several days in Amsterdam. As it is, I was lucky to have gotten either in or out of Paris – the next day they were canceling most of their flights, as well! Another major storm is supposed to be moving in tonight, so travel may get bad again. I hope we make it home on the 1st! Glad to hear your daughter made it home for Christmas! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/69 "2010-12-23T13:35:21Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > I lived in Oxford for seven years and we didn’t get five inches of snow _for the entire time I lived there_. Not five inches of snow in a single snowstorm, five inches of snow total, in seven years. So, yeah, I think five inches of snow in a single storm is unusual enough for southern England that Heathrow might be unprepared. Even at that, it’s pretty uncommon for Dallas as well, and we got something like 9 inches of snow in a single day in February of this year. It did shut down the airport, but it didn’t cause nearly the absolute and total clusterfuck that the relatively paltry 5 inches of snow caused at Heathrow. From what I can tell (having watched hours of CNN-World and BBC World News lately), BAA made some kind of mistake in terms of clearing snow from the plane stands at the terminals, and although the runways were cleared relatively early, they had to hand-clear the snow from around the planes just to get them out and to get the new planes in. I dodged a bullet of sorts- my wife and I were in Rome and scheduled to fly to Heathrow and then to Dallas on the 21st, but those got cancelled. Luckily, we were able to book a Milan-JFK flight tomorrow, although getting to Milan and staying the extra 3 nights is on our nickel… Screw American Airlines. They weren’t even nice about rescheduling us or trying to help us at all. Nor do they seem to have a European number to call that’s obvious from their website. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/70 "2010-12-29T11:07:11Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Daughter is home, and brought some papers. It seems that Heathrow got bought by a Spanish company, and they decided to save money to pay off their loan by skimping on snow removal preparations. That Spanish company used to be part of our Ministry of Transportation, before getting “privatized”. They now combine the worst of the public and corporate work ethics. We have quite a few monsters like that around… **bump** , you should be able to get compensation: it doesn’t matter where the aircarrier is incorporated, the problem happened in Europe and falls under EU compensation rules. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/71 "2010-12-29T12:22:45Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t think people are defending BA too vigorously. Those who fly regularly know it is not the worst, nor it is the best. (don’t mention delays, Cairo and lost luggage to me unless you want strangling with a pair of free flight socks) > > They don’t suck the most, they don’t suck the least, they have moderate suckage with periods of non-suckage. However, I agree with someone else who said that for the prices they charge we should expect far less suckage than we get. > > . I’d agree BA is okay- in my most recent experience Qantas was far better. Ten years ago I think I would have had that opinion reversed. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/72 "2010-12-30T06:22:59Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > That Spanish company used to be part of our Ministry of Transportation, before getting “privatized”. They now combine the worst of the public and corporate work ethics. We have quite a few monsters like that around… > **bump** , you should be able to get compensation: it doesn’t matter where the aircarrier is incorporated, the problem happened in Europe and falls under EU compensation rules. We saw some article noting the the EU minister told the airlines in no uncertain terms that they will pay passengers for accommodations and food. In the US they recently put in rules saying that passengers stuck on airlines too long would get compensated, and the airlines would pay a hefty fine per passenger. This meant that a lot of flights got canceled sooner, but since in my experience you sit for hours and get canceled anyway, I think this was a plus. I haven’t read about anyone getting stuck on the runway as has usually been the case. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/73 "2010-12-30T07:31:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In the US they recently put in rules saying that passengers stuck on airlines too long would get compensated, and the airlines would pay a hefty fine per passenger. This meant that a lot of flights got canceled sooner, but since in my experience you sit for hours and get canceled anyway, I think this was a plus. I haven’t read about anyone getting stuck on the runway as has usually been the case. Check out this article: [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/30/business/30tarmac.html?src=busln](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/30/business/30tarmac.html?src=busln) Apparently, they are still trapping people on the tarmac with impunity as long as it’s an international flight. [QUOTE=New York Times] This year, federal officials enacted a rule that penalizes airlines with hefty fines if planes are kept on the tarmac for more than three hours. But the new rule applies only to flights that begin and end in the United States. [/QUOTE] One flight this past weekend was stuck on the tarmac for 11 hours, and four flights I believe were stuck on the tarmac overnight. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/74 "2010-12-30T09:17:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > FIt seems that Heathrow got bought by a Spanish company, and they decided to save money to pay off their loan by skimping on snow removal preparations. Gatwick spent about 9 million pounds over last year, Heathrow spent 500,000 pounds, and in total had a smaller snow removal budget than Gatwick, though it is much bigger. There are calls for heads to roll, like the head of BAA. > > Someone in the paper said that when it snows five inches in Denmark, people think about checking their snow tires. Well, Denmark is probably the least equipped to deal with snow of all the Nordic countries, for the simple reason that they get the least of it. Still, Kastrup doesn’t shut down for a week when the snow comes. Five inches may have the city of Copenhagen scrambling to get enough plows on the streets, but the airport will reopen ASAP - it’s a business with a reputation to protect, after all. Some British aviation expert dude was on the news claiming that it wasn’t fair to compare how British airports react to snow with how Scandinavian airports react, because - and this is what he said - _Britain gets a different kind of snow._ :rolleyes: He needs to talk to a Scandinavian cross-country skiing fanatic, who would be happy not only to tell him about the various types of snow that can fall and the conditions that create each kind, but also the appropriate way to prepare skis for each sort of snow, taking into consideration how old the snow is and what weather conditions have been like since it fell. He would probably end up chewing his own arm off from sheer boredom, which seems to me to be appropriate: stupidity that deep should hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/75 "2010-12-30T14:04:59Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > Well, Denmark is probably the least equipped to deal with snow of all the Nordic countries, for the simple reason that they get the least of it. Still, Kastrup doesn’t shut down for a week when the snow comes. Five inches may have the city of Copenhagen scrambling to get enough plows on the streets, but the airport will reopen ASAP - it’s a business with a reputation to protect, after all. > > Some British aviation expert dude was on the news claiming that it wasn’t fair to compare how British airports react to snow with how Scandinavian airports react, because - and this is what he said - _Britain gets a different kind of snow._ :rolleyes: He needs to talk to a Scandinavian cross-country skiing fanatic, who would be happy not only to tell him about the various types of snow that can fall and the conditions that create each kind, but also the appropriate way to prepare skis for each sort of snow, taking into consideration how old the snow is and what weather conditions have been like since it fell. He would probably end up chewing his own arm off from sheer boredom, which seems to me to be appropriate: stupidity that deep should hurt. Did you see the interview with the tarmac worker at Gardermoen yesterday? That was comedy gold. Some BBC journo nob was asking him how much time it’d take them to clear the Heathrow, if they were down there. Journo: “So - how quickly could you and the rest of your crew clear Heathrow, you think?” Worker: “'Bout 20, I think.” Journo: “20?! My God, where were you last week? If you could have cleared it up in 20 hours, they’d make you a hero!” Worker: “Minutes.” ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/76 "2010-12-30T14:43:17Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > Did you see the interview with the tarmac worker at Gardermoen yesterday? That was comedy gold. Some BBC journo nob was asking him how much time it’d take them to clear the Heathrow, if they were down there. > > Journo: “So - how quickly could you and the rest of your crew clear Heathrow, you think?” > Worker: “'Bout 20, I think.” > Journo: “20?! My God, where were you last week? If you could have cleared it up in 20 hours, they’d make you a hero!” > Worker: “Minutes.” NOOOOOOO! I missed it! Damn. If anybody finds a link to this on YouTube or anywhere, would you please please post it? In the meantime I will imagine the snow-clearing guy had a Petter Solberg accent 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/77 "2010-12-30T15:29:07Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Check out this article: [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/30/business/30tarmac.html?src=busln](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/30/business/30tarmac.html?src=busln) > Apparently, they are still trapping people on the tarmac with impunity as long as it’s an international flight. > > One flight this past weekend was stuck on the tarmac for 11 hours, and four flights I believe were stuck on the tarmac overnight. The article didn’t make this entirely clear, but this was because of customs problems. The border agents, Federal employees not under the control of the airport ([control of their hours](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001353---a000-.html) is vested in the United States Attorney General), went home without clearing all the international planes. I am by no means an expert but it appears to me that Federal law requires the detention of “all persons” entering the US in either a secure facility or onboard the vessel unless they are authorized by a customs agent. 8 CFR 235.3. My understanding is that the passengers were unable to deplane without access to border inspection, and there wasn’t a secure area (or maybe not one large enough for all the passengers, I’m pretty sure they do have detention facilities along the lines of interrogation rooms at JFK). Now, JFK **should** be set up so it is possible to deplane into a secure holding area in the event of the unavailability of border agents, (and the AG **should** have ordered overtime) but I’m not sure what else the _airline_ could have done in these circumstances. No passenger bill of rights is going to overcome the airport’s requirement to comply with federal immigration law. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/78 "2010-12-30T16:18:36Z")
I don’t know the current state of the investigation, but it sounds like Cathay Pacific thought there would be gates available (they borrow British Airways’ gates), and there weren’t. It also sounds like the flights never should have taken off to begin with knowing the weather was coming in. That is squarely the airline’s fault. So I don’t think we can lay it all at the feet of customs problems (though they certainly exacerbated the problem). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570/79 "2010-12-30T18:03:22Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Check out this article: [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/30/business/30tarmac.html?src=busln](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/30/business/30tarmac.html?src=busln) > Apparently, they are still trapping people on the tarmac with impunity as long as it’s an international flight. > One flight this past weekend was stuck on the tarmac for 11 hours, and four flights I believe were stuck on the tarmac overnight. Didn’t know that. I must have missed it when reading the articles. Interesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/britishair-rot-in-hell/564570.md?page=3)