Without giving away too much (I hope), I know someone who is an acquaintance of Britney Spears (he used to work for her - a while ago now). He tells me she is not so much “dumb” as uneducated. He says she has been treated like a “piece of meat” since she was a kid, so it’s no wonder she has some issues. He also apparently met her father back in the day and described him as a “drunk hillbilly” at the time. He hopes she can get out from under this conservatorship.
Take this anecdotal, unverifiable information for what it is worth
Not realizing that her lawyer was screwing her for years is kinda what I meant by ‘dumb.’ A more, let’s say ‘sophisticated’ person might have struck up a conversation with another lawyer, or even deliberately sought one out, just by thinking “Hmmm, this doesn’t seem quite right,” but Ms. Spears’ mind doesn’t work the way your mind or my mind or my cat’s mind does. She doesn’t seem the kind of person to socialize with any lawyer-types, maybe not with anyone who hangs around with lawyers and could recommend one specializing in conservancy law, and she seems to lack the ability to progress easily from “Man, this sucks” to “What might I be able to do about it sucking?”
Obviously she’s found some way around the problem of the attorney who wouldn’t help her out. I suspect most Dopers (and many schoolchildren) would have found that path sooner.
The problem with a conservatorship is that, once established, the conservatee has no legal voice or agency of his/her own. The conservator becomes the legal agent of the conservatee and the legal voice of the conservatee. Thus, the conservator makes all decisions for the conservatee, even medical and legal decisions.
So how does the conservatee break out of that? Generally, it can only happen when the conservator decides so, because the conservator makes all the decisions.
She really didn’t. Her fans and the NYTimes did. But she really couldn’t - she is apparently treated like a grounded fourteen year old “don’t do what Dad wants and he will take away the few freedoms you have.” He controls who she sees. He controls her access to information and her ability to communicate to the outside world.
So it justifies my thinking her a little bit on the “dim” side of the scale in addition to being constrained by her lack of education. Not a big thing, but something that a clever person with an excellent education probably would have been able to do years sooner, if I’m allowed to hold an opinion on that.
I mean, you’re free to hold and express any opinion you like. But I’m still wondering what your point is in expressing this one. Let’s assume you are correct and she’s not a bright person. And let’s also assume you are correct and a brighter person could have gotten out from under this problematic conservatorship earlier.
Taken that all as given, it seems to me that what you are doing is pointing and laughing at someone who has been damaged and taken advantage of, in the realm of “Haha, what an idiot!”
What’s the point of that? It strikes me as kind of jerkish, to be honest. Is there a point you’re making that I’m missing?
Please see Kenobi_65’s post above, in which it was contended that she wasn’t dumb as much as she was just poorly educated, and to which I responded that they’re not mutually exclusive, and Britney’s circumstances indicated that “Both” probably applied. I really don’t see why you’re getting so exorcised about my assessment, which is probably (not certainly) accurate. Why you see my opinions as pointing and laughing escapes me–I’m merely expressing an opinion that seems difficult to refute and pretty unobjectionable, unless you’re just opposed to holding an opinion on any celebrity’s intelligence and education levels. If you want to show why you think she’s smart and well-educated, please do.
I am familiar with the thread and your replies to it, so I don’t need to review, but thank you. Because I am familiar with it, I am aware that you have compared Britney’s intelligence level to less than that of a cat or a child, apparently because she has not tried to get out from under this conservatorship until now. That’s why I think you are pointing and laughing, rather than expressing a neutral and sober opinion on intelligence and education levels.
And for the record, the word you were looking for is “exercised,” not “exorcised.” I am neither, though I am of the opinion that one shouldn’t kick people when they are down. YMMV.
The fact is, nobody really knows what mental or emotional challenges she continues to exhibit that prevent this order from being lifted. Is she a danger to herself or others? There is nothing in the public record that suggests this is the case, but then the public isn’t privy to all her personal health information.
We can try to compare how other mentally challenged celebrities (K.W.) are treated and draw certain conclusions. Even that is not highly relevant because for all we know, K.W. might be subjected to the same treatment if somebody took the necessary legal steps to restrict him to conservatorial oversight. Nobody has to date so his situation remains different to that of B.S.
In conclusion, it isn’t a question of her being demonstrably smart, well-educated, or even particularly mentally stable. She may well be non of those things. But does that mean that she deserves to be taken advantage of by her father or continue to be subjected to the legal conservatorial constraints placed upon her in perpetuity?
And, if personal observation of how that happens in estate cases is any indication, the judge picks an attorney she knows socially to milk the estate dry while dragging their feet for billable hours as much as possible ( Years ). How the attorney rewards this judge is never made available publicly. Never the less, once the mosquito lawyer is fat enough off of the dessicated estate, it is presented to the court as “settled”.
Because I have compared her intelligence to that of a child or a lower-order mammal, that means I am pointing and laughing? I don’t see that at all.
Please read the OP carefully.
I don’t see how responding to its premises (and positively, in that I did not claim that she was “mentally retarded” or “mentally ill” or “autistic,” just of very unimpressive native intelligence or educational achievements) is being jerkish.
If I do have an agenda here, I suppose it might be to note how folks tend to assume that celebrities must be of at least average intelligence, and so we mistake anything that a celebrity says or does for something of value. Britney seems like a good example of this principle, and I certainly wouldn’t hold her up as a role model, except in the realm of dancing, keeping her body in good shape, expending effort in giving perfornances, etc. It’s a little bit sad that kids should look up to her, or want to emulate her in any way, when (aside from show-biz considerations) it’s plain that she has messed up her life badly, to my mind, and I feel sorry for her.
Other than that, though, I have no real agenda here, outside of answering the OP’s question as best I can. Sorry if that it’s not good enough to please you, and I apologize for not catching my typo.
If she’s mentally ill, this may not be a situation “she got herself into”. In other words, it may not be her fault and it is entirely possible that she may have been taken advantage of. It’s not an uncommon thing for people with diminished mental capacities to fall victim to predation.
Then I would say that we won’t be able to come to any agreement on this issue, because IMO you have been repeatedly and quite deliberately mocking the intelligence of a person in distress. And if you can’t see that, well, I guess we are done here.
I actually don’t care all that much about this story except from an observational point of view and the interesting polarity of opinions. I am somewhat skeptical that B.S., given her high public profile, has fallen victim to predation for as long as is claimed without anyone coming to her aid sooner. I think a court would have a hard time maintaining status quo of abusive conservatorship without challenge or scrutiny, unless there were not other factors at play that the public is not privy to.
I’m saying that her father may be a jerk but it would take some doing for the court to collude with him and his attorney against such a high profile public figure without earlier challenge.
That said, it’s good that this is getting the attention it is getting to hopefully correct for the possibility of any miscarriage of justice.
I believe that she has tried to get out of it before. I think it was the NYT article which articulated this (and it is referenced by hercomment yo the judge about not having been listened to before).
