# Brits/Europeans: Why so anal about liquid measure? (beer) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** beer\ **Created:** [January 4, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385 "2012-01-04T15:57:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/41 "2012-01-05T17:25:10Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > but they did have the exact measure draw devises for hard liquor even back then. Bottles were turned upside down attached to the device and when the bartender would draw a shot, they would press up and an exact measure would be served So annoying to me. I usually chat with the bartenders, tip them okay, make it clear my party’s going to be buying a lot of drinks and not causing any trouble. I’m not worried about short pours, I’m worried about not getting the lagniappe most bartenders will eventually give you with some pretty heavy handed pours. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/42 "2012-01-05T17:29:51Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > But note that there isn’t anybody here from Italy or France defending their brews. > > There’s a reason for that. 😃 Ahem. I’m not French, but I’ll step up to the plate for their having **some** more than decent beer. > **[Beer in France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_France)** > > Most beer sold in France is pilsner lager, mass-produced by major breweries which control over 90% of the market, although there are also traditional beer styles, such as top-fermented Bière de Garde, and a number of microbreweries. > Before industrialisation, most beer was brewed in small rural breweries, which catered to the needs of the local residents. In the early 20th century there were over a thousand breweries in France. > As rural population declined, these breweries almost disappeared ... The rejoinder is an obvious one (most of the examples are from ethnically not-very-“French” subcultures) but hey, it’s French beer historically and legally. Italy, I kind of got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/43 "2012-01-05T17:33:49Z")
France and Spain would do well to stock their taps with German, Dutch and English beers. Vice versa when it comes to the wine cellars. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/44 "2012-01-05T17:59:10Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > No, but when I buy other stuff based on the weight (and historically alcohol has been sold by weight) I don’t expect them to shortchange me either. Also, alcohol isn’t exclusively sold in restaurants. But we’re not talking about food and beverages sold by volume or weight in a supermarket to be taken home. We’re talking about food or drink being served on the premises to be consumed as a “serving” of food. At that kind of establishment, there are no requirements for serving consumables in measured and marked serving vessels, even if it’s expensive. Like your eight-ounce filet mignon. Should that be served on a plate with a calibrated weighing scale? I don’t see why alcohol should be different. You get the amount you get and if you dn’t like the amount, you go to another establishment that charges less or gives you more. And I don’t really see what benefit the consumer gets in the long run. So, a bar has to serve beer in a calibrated and marked glass. Is that bar required by law to serve that quantity at a regulated price? If not, it could just increase the price, right? So in the long run it’s not making much difference here. I don’t buy that “500 million pounds” figure at all, because it assumes that consumers would be getting the increased amount of alcohol at the same price. But why would you assume that? ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/45 "2012-01-05T17:59:41Z")
> [@Remember\_me](#): > > Like Rheintochter already said: It depends very much on where in Germany you are. > 0.33l bottles in cases of 24 are the norm in northern parts of Germany and in pubs and restaurants you can usually chose between a small beer (mostly 0.3l, very rarely 0.25l) and a “large” beer (mostly 0.5l, sometimes 0.4l). > In southern Germany beer is usually sold in 0.5l bottles in cases of 20. And I am certain, that they have different customs as what sizes are served in pubs and restaurants, but I don’t know for sure. > As a rule of thumb: the more southernly you are in Germany, the larger you typical beer serving would be. In the USA, imports are often coming in 0.33L bottles now (11.2oz) while domestic brands seem to be sticking with the American standard of 12oz (around 0.355L). I just noticed the change in size of imports within the past year or two. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/46 "2012-01-05T18:07:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And I don’t really see what benefit the consumer gets in the long run. So, a bar has to serve beer in a calibrated and marked glass. Is that bar required by law to serve that quantity at a regulated price? If not, it could just increase the price, right? So in the long run it’s not making much difference here. I don’t buy that “500 million pounds” figure at all, because it assumes that consumers would be getting the increased amount of alcohol at the same price. But why would you assume that? This is where i was at the beginning of the thread. Joe Brit gets exactly one pint for $5 (or pounds, Euros, whatever). My glass in the US is never purported to be a pint. I’m charged $1. I make the decision to purchase or not on my evaluation of value. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/47 "2012-01-05T18:09:02Z")
> [@Lukeinva](#): > > France and Spain would do well to stock their taps with German, Dutch and English beers. Vice versa when it comes to the wine cellars. Not knowing much about wine in general, I don’t think that the Netherlands or England produce much if any, but [Germany produces a lot of wine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_wine), some of it having a good reputation. ETA: Of course you’ll get Spanish and French wine here almost anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/48 "2012-01-05T18:22:19Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > But we’re not talking about food and beverages sold by volume or weight in a supermarket to be taken home. We’re talking about food or drink being served on the premises to be consumed as a “serving” of food. At that kind of establishment, there are no requirements for serving consumables in measured and marked serving vessels, even if it’s expensive. Like your eight-ounce filet mignon. Should that be served on a plate with a calibrated weighing scale? I don’t see why alcohol should be different. You get the amount you get and if you dn’t like the amount, you go to another establishment that charges less or gives you more. > > And I don’t really see what benefit the consumer gets in the long run. So, a bar has to serve beer in a calibrated and marked glass. Is that bar required by law to serve that quantity at a regulated price? If not, it could just increase the price, right? So in the long run it’s not making much difference here. I don’t buy that “500 million pounds” figure at all, because it assumes that consumers would be getting the increased amount of alcohol at the same price. But why would you assume that? Historical reasons. That’s the way it has always been done. Also, liquid doesn’t change volume to any sort of degree that a steak does from pre-cooked to cooked state. Also, having a standard size for a drink is trivial (it is a liquid, just poor and it fills the vessel) whereas with foods like steak you can get into all sort of a mess trying to get exactly 8oz pre-cooked. But mainly that’s just the way it has been done and a long time ago it became law. No one is particularly wound up by it, in fact they kind of like the standardisation, and so it is no danger of changing. Seriously, we don’t care. We like it. You like it your way, we like it ours. You can do it your way over there, we’ll do it our way over here. Cheers. Right I’m off down the pub to have some more of those 64 SEK Guinnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/49 "2012-01-05T18:23:34Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I make the decision to purchase or not on my evaluation of value. That’s the same in Britain though. A pint of John Smith’s in one pub is £2.70 (my local, actually, which is pretty cheap these days) and £3.50 in another. At least the British consumer is able to make the evaluation of value on a level playing field. I suppose the US custom of tipping, and thus potentially getting freebies, complicates matters further. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/50 "2012-01-05T18:36:32Z")
There is definitely a sort “drink measuring” here in the States it just isn’t law. For example, up until just a year or two ago bars in S. Carolina were only allowed to stock airplane bottles - every drink was always the same size. Whether that was to protect the owner or the customer I’m not sure, probably both. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/51 "2012-01-05T18:45:13Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I suppose the US custom of tipping, and thus potentially getting freebies, complicates matters further. And I’m told that very often bartenders put more alcohol in women’s drinks. ---
**Author:** ![bryanmaguire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d07c76/32.png) [@bryanmaguire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bryanmaguire)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/52 "2012-01-05T22:18:16Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > So annoying to me. I usually chat with the bartenders, tip them okay, make it clear my party’s going to be buying a lot of drinks and not causing any trouble. I’m not worried about short pours, I’m worried about not getting the lagniappe most bartenders will eventually give you with some pretty heavy handed pours. thanks for teaching me a new word ---
**Author:** ![drbhoneydew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d78d45/32.png) [@drbhoneydew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drbhoneydew)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/53 "2012-01-05T22:22:15Z")
You guys don’t know the half of it! My granddad would grumble if a lady wasn’t given a half pint in a schooner glass (not the 2/3 pint glass that the Aussies call a schooner, but a similarly shaped half pint glass). There was a rather interesting program on the subject a few weeks back on Radio 4 - apparently during WWI, the UK government decided to encourage the drinking of weak-ish (3% or so) beer as a session drink rather than the stronger ales and barley wines (5-10%). The usual measure thus became the pint rather than the 1/3 & 1/2 that had previously been the norm. In addition the pint and half became the only legal measures for beer. [The Belgians instead banned spirits and the knockout juices they now export in great quantities became popular] There are 2 standard responses to the short pint. In a good pub you can just ask for it to be topped up and they will do so. In dodgier pubs where they try to disguise the shorting with getting on for an Oktoberfest level of foam you comment on how they serve good halves and they grudgingly top it up. In both cases you need to give the beer a chance to settle first… ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/54 "2012-01-05T23:23:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s probably because Europeans actually enjoy the taste of their beer, and don’t just see it as the price you have to pay for getting drunk. This reminds me of a joke I heard a long time ago in the US and, IIRC, it was told to me by a Canadian. _Why is drinking American beer like having sex on a boat? … … … … … .. . Because it’s fucking close to water!_ I thought it was very funny at the time, but in defense of American beer, I think it refers to the mass produced crap. The US does have some great micro brewed beers that taste great. If I recall correctly, there was a sort of beer revolution that went on which caused a number of micro brews to pop up. I remember Sam Adams as one of the first to come out with a decent American beer back in the mid to late '80s. Now there are so many tasty micro brews in the US. This is a good thing as I firmly believe beer needs to be brewed in smaller quantities for better quality. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/55 "2012-01-06T00:17:50Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > I thought it was very funny at the time, but in defense of American beer, I think it refers to the mass produced crap. The US does have some great micro brewed beers that taste great. > If I recall correctly, there was a sort of beer revolution that went on which caused a number of micro brews to pop up. I remember Sam Adams as one of the first to come out with a decent American beer back in the mid to late '80s. > Now there are so many tasty micro brews in the US. This is a good thing as I firmly believe beer needs to be brewed in smaller quantities for better quality. Yep. As someone who is a bit of a Europhile, I really think there’s no better place to be if you’re a beer lover than in America right now. There is just so much going on. This isn’t the beer scene of the 80s anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/56 "2012-01-06T00:27:18Z")
In the U.S., the impact of being shorted depends on what kind of beer it is. If it’s a Stone IPA or an Anchor Steam, that’d be really bad, a Sam Adams then kind of meh, but a Budweiser or Miller “Genuine Draft” then it’s a piece of mercy… ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/57 "2012-01-06T00:38:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yep. As someone who is a bit of a Europhile, I really think there’s no better place to be if you’re a beer lover than in America right now. There is just so much going on. This isn’t the beer scene of the 80s anymore. Oh yes - and I say that as a European. I’m happy to say that one of my best friends here in Sweden is the twin of the guy behind [craftcans.com](http://craftcans.com) and the amount of high quality imported American beer I have been introduced to via him is insane. Between Guinnesses this evening I had a couple of Anchor Steams (Southside apparently got it on tap 3 weeks ago) and that felt like slumming it compared to the stuff he has introduced me to over the past couple of years or so. Especially Colorado. An insane amount of good beer seems to come from there. ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/58 "2012-01-06T09:18:53Z")
> [@spanna](#): > > It is getting more common to see women drinking pints, but it isn’t the norm > > Can’t explain it, especially when you see the size of some of the wine glasses used now Ah, I’m not the only one who drinks my wine out of a pint glass then! ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/59 "2012-01-06T12:55:21Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > What were you doing drinking in pubs in the 80s if you were born in 1975? 🙂 I started going to pubs regularly when I was 13, mostly with older friends. That was quite common then. I’d also gone to a lot of pubs with family when I was younger, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Teacake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Teacake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teacake)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385/60 "2012-01-06T20:56:48Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Not knowing much about wine in general, I don’t think that the Netherlands or England produce much if any, but [Germany produces a lot of wine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_wine), some of it having a good reputation. > > ETA: Of course you’ll get Spanish and French wine here almost anywhere. Most English wine is consumed in England. You’ll be lucky to get any, and I mean that in every sense. I love wine, and there are some very good ones from places like Cornwall, Suffolk and Surrey. I have also in my possession as we speak two bottles of very nice Dutch wine, which I bought in Maastricht. It’s not a huge or (geographically) widespread industry in either country the way it is in France or Italy, but it’s a shame not to acknowledge that both the Netherlands and England produce a fair amount of very nice wine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-europeans-why-so-anal-about-liquid-measure-beer/608385.md?page=4)