# Brits: Please explain Forms vs our Grades. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 29, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217 "2009-03-29T21:40:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/21 "2009-03-30T03:48:18Z")
**Sunspace** : That has to be wrong, because normal high school graduation in America occurs for people who have had their 18th birthday. That is one reason a number of ages of majority occur at 18: Your state-mandated education has ended and you are no longer under the thumb of truancy officers. Since the scale is consistent, you must have to move the US scale down a notch and everything looks like it will add up: We (apparently) have (totally optional) pre-school for 4-5-year-olds. (I suppose I could be wrong, but the senior year of HS _has to_ end when you’re 18 if you haven’t skipped a grade.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/22 "2009-03-30T04:02:39Z")
Yeah, I’m pretty sure you have to be 6 when you start first grade. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/23 "2009-03-30T04:02:47Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **Sunspace** : That has to be wrong, because normal high school graduation in America occurs for people who have had their 18th birthday. That is one reason a number of ages of majority occur at 18: Your state-mandated education has ended and you are no longer under the thumb of truancy officers. Since the scale is consistent, you must have to move the US scale down a notch and everything looks like it will add up: We (apparently) have (totally optional) pre-school for 4-5-year-olds. (I suppose I could be wrong, but the senior year of HS _has to_ end when you’re 18 if you haven’t skipped a grade.) No, because I have 12th grade starting when you’re 16 and ending when you’re 17. Thus the 18th birthday takes place on the way out of, or after graduation from, 12th grade. In my case, I skipped a grade (actually, got transferred from grade one to grade two in midyear), so I was a year younger than most people in my class after that. I turned 18 the summer after I graduated from grade _13_, and was one of two 18-year-olds in my first-year class at university. :: rereads chart :: Okay, you are right. I have kindergarten starting for four-year-olds. I started when I was five. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/24 "2009-03-30T05:33:06Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > So there were actual activities based on home forms? In my experience, home form was the first thing I went to at the beginning of a new year, where I got my timetable and locker number and everything, but after that, it was little more than an ID code. I’m not sure whether we ever sat in the same room with all the other students in our home form again. Yes. They’re together morning and afternoon for registration, and in most cases they’ll stay together for some lessons as a mixed-ability group through to year 9. Also, the principle is that the form tutor and the form will get to know each other well, and can be a reliable first point-of-contact for each other when problems or concerns arise. > [@Derleth](#): > > How does this work? Is this an academic-vocational split or a normal-advanced split, or something else entirely? Is it possible to ‘jump the tracks’ once the split has initially been made? There’s the opportunity to apply for entry in year 7, as with regular high schools. However, 5-18 schools are a very small minority, which have come about as exceptions such as independent schools which have been converted to state-funded academies. > [@](#): > > They’re arbitrary but very old and they’re used the exact same way in college, so it’s less of a chore to memorize them. (Do the Brits use those terms? I don’t even know if British post-secondary education has the same focus on four-year programs, in fact.) No, we don’t use them, and tertiary education consists of three and four year courses, with longer ones for medicine, veterinary, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/25 "2009-03-30T05:34:04Z")
So, how about this from “The Changing of the Guard” ep of “Twilight Zone:” The ghosts of \*Professor Fowler’s former students greet him (starting at about 7:35) of [this clip](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXFIkpuMrVI&feature=PlayList&p=FDEB2322D79AFBFA&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1), and continuing into the next. Some of them mention what “form” they were in. How does this translate, especially since this ep is set in the States? \*Played by 43-year-old Donald Pleasance. [And what about the forehead on that one guy?] ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/26 "2009-03-30T05:56:32Z")
> [@Spartydog](#): > > Prep schools in the US still use “forms”. It designates grades 7 through 12 (the traditional junior high and high school years). 7th grade is first form, 8th grade is 2nd form, 9th grade (freshman) is 3rd form . . . 12th grade (senior) is 6th form. Some kids do a PG (post graduate) year. Mostly only the very old and traditional and (usually) religious East Coast prep schools in the US still use this system. Most use the regular 9th-12th grade system that the rest of the country uses, and maybe a PG year if they want. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/27 "2009-03-30T06:00:48Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > (Note that the same four words are used for the four years of university as for the four years of high school in the U.S.: Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, and Senior. Note that this correspondence only matches up the ages in the two countries and makes no statement about the difficulty of the academic work in the two countries.) I’m not sure whether your comment arises from Maryland practice or your temporo-spatial distance from high school, but it does not match my experience. The last four years of school before college were known as 9th through 12th grades when I went through them in the late 1960s in Michigan, when my nieces and nephews went through them in Michigan in the last few years, and when my kids went through them over the last few years in Ohio. The names given to those grades were borrowed from college, (just as rituals such as the Homecoming Dance and the Prom were borrowed from college before the colleges tended to drop them), but the grades are still numbered. = = = As to the naming of school divisions: The original divisions appear to have been Elementary School, grades K, 1 - 8 High School, grades 9 - 12. (This pattern remains in parochial schools.) Around the time of the great school district consolidation, (late 1940s), the schools were re-organized to Elementary School, grades K, 1 - 6 Junior High, grades 7 - 9 High School, grades 10 - 12. In the late 1970s, a trend began to shift those boundaries to be Elementary School, grades K, 1 - 5 Middle School, grades 6 - 8 High School, grades 9 - 12. How much of that was based on trying to divide the grades into manageable numbers for school buildings and how much it was based on attempts to organize kids along gradients of psychological development, I don’t know. In addition, since these tend to be local decisions, they are not necessarily consistent even within every state, much less between or among all the states. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/28 "2009-03-30T07:02:24Z")
Sunspace, read my previous post carefully. I explained the correspondence of the years in my post. Kindergarten starts a year later in the U.S. The following is the real correspondence: Age\_\_\_\_\_\_U.S.\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_Ontario, Canada\_\_\_\_\_\_\_England/Wales 4-5\_\_\_\_\_nothing\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_kindergarten\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_reception 5-6\_\_\_\_kindergarten\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_grade 1\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 1 6-7\_\_\_\_\_1st grade\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_grade 2\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 2 7-8 \_\_\_\_2nd grade\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_grade 3\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 3 8-9 \_\_\_\_3rd grade\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_grade 4\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 4 9-10\_\_\_\_4th grade\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_grade 5\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 5 10-11\_\_\_5th grade\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_grade 6\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 6 11-12\_\_\_6th grade\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_grade 7\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 7 / lower third form 12-13\_\_\_7th grade\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_grade 8\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 8 / upper third form 13-14\_\_\_8th grade\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_grade 9\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 9 / fourth form 14-15\_\_\_9th grade / freshman\_\_\_\_grade 10\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 10 / lower fifth form 15-16\_\_\_10th grade / sophomore\_grade 11\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 11 / upper fifth form 16-17\_\_\_11th grade / junior\_\_\_\_\_grade 12\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 12 / lower sixth form 17-18\_\_\_12th grade / senior\_\_\_\_\_grade 13\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_year 13 / upper sixth form ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/29 "2009-03-30T07:05:24Z")
tomndebb writes: \> I’m not sure whether your comment arises from Maryland practice or your \> temporo-spatial distance from high school, but it does not match my experience. I grew up in northwest Ohio. I graduated from high school in 1970. In my experience it was rare to use the terms “grade 9,” “grade 10,” “grade 11,” and “grade 12.” It was much more common to use the terms “freshman,” “sophomore,” “junior,” and “sophomore.” ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/30 "2009-03-30T07:08:20Z")
tomndebb writes: \> Around the time of the great school district consolidation, (late 1940s), the \> schools were re-organized to \> Elementary School, grades K, 1 - 6 \> Junior High, grades 7 - 9 \> High School, grades 10 - 12. When I graduated in 1970, it was like this for the buildings: \> Elementary School, grades K, 1 - 8 \> High School, grades 9 - 12. The 7th and 8th grades were sometimes referred to as Junior High School, but it wasn’t a separate building. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/31 "2009-03-30T07:09:39Z")
Incidentally, I went to a public high school, not a parochial one. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/32 "2009-03-30T08:09:22Z")
In New Zealand the system is a little different to Britain but based on it. We now use Year 1, Year 2 etc but when I was at school it went like this. In New Zealand children start ON their 5th birthday (the day of their birthday, or the day after) so ages are not set in concrete. Primary school New Entrants- 5 Primer 1- 6 Primer 2- 7 Primer 3- 8 Standard 1- 9 Standard 2- 10 Intermediate school Form 1- 11 Form 2- 12 High school/College (it’s just a ‘name of the school’ thing but is mostly referred to as College) Form 3- 13 Form 4- 14 Form 5- 15 (major exam year and year that many left school, leaving age is now 16 hmmmm or is it 17? But in my day it was 15). Form 6- 16 (in my day most kids left school at the end of this year). Form 7 - 17 (In my day only seriously university orientated types did this year). My son is in Year 13/Form 7, only a few kids of his Year left last year, now nearly everybody stays to finish Year 13, though we have no official graduation. The system now labels everyone Year ? As I said before, everyone starts school at on their 5th birthday so now if you start after May you are Year 0, before May you are Year One. Oh and our school year is four 10 week terms (starting in late Jan/early Feb) with 2 weeks holidays between each term and 6 weeks Christmas/Summer holidays. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/33 "2009-03-30T08:30:13Z")
To muddy the waters even further, when I was at secondary school in England in the 70s/80s, we didn’t use “form” (except for the sixth form) or, of course, the current Year 7, Year 8 etc. system. Instead, and I think this was normal in state schools at the time, it was “first year” (equivalent to US 6th grade, current England & Wales Year 7), “second year” etc. And, because in my area we had middle schools between primary and secondary, there was no actual first year - the newbies at secondary school were the “second years”. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/34 "2009-03-30T12:11:12Z")
Derleth writes (in reply to my explanation of the terms “freshman,” “sophomore,” “junior,” and senior": \> Do the Brits use those terms? I don’t even know if British post-secondary \> education has the same focus on four-year programs, in fact. No, the terms aren’t used for either high school or university in the U.K. You do realize, don’t you, that in England and Wales university programs are only three years long? Apparently in Scotland there are both three- and four-year programs. Nobody outside the U.S. uses those terms in the same way that they’re used in the U.S. Apparently in Australia and New Zealand the students in the last two years of high school are all referred to as “seniors,” but otherwise those terms are simply incomprehensible to non-Americans, which is why I referred to them as arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/35 "2009-03-30T12:48:58Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > As to the naming of school divisions: > > * * * > > In addition, since these tend to be local decisions, they are not necessarily consistent even within every state, much less between or among all the states. So far as I know, these are ad hoc decisions based on allocation of resources and, as you say, local perceptions of age appropriateness (more the former, I think). They can vary from one year to the next depending on the sizes of the buildings and the incoming class sizes. I don’t think they even have to be consistent within a single school district. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/36 "2009-03-30T12:53:24Z")
The system in Hong Kong, which is based on the old system in England, is like this: Kindergarten 3, 4, 5 (technically optional, but most people go nowadays) Primary School Primary 1 - 6 Primary 2 - 7 Primary 3 - 8 Primary 4 - 9 Primary 5 - 10 Primary 6 - 11 Secondary School Form 1 - 12 Form 2 - 13 Form 3 - 14 Form 4 - 15 Form 5 - 16 There’s a big exam at the end of this (equivalent to the British O-level/GCSE). Those who are not going to university are done with school at this point. Form 6/Lower 6 - 17 Form 7/Upper 6 - 18 There’s another big exam at this point (A-level). Most university programmes are 3 - 4 years. School year runs from September to July, with major breaks around Christmas, Lunar New Year and Easter. ---
**Author:** ![Oswald\_Bastable](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oswald_bastable/32/214_2.png) [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/37 "2009-03-30T12:54:56Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Derleth writes (in reply to my explanation of the terms “freshman,” “sophomore,” “junior,” and senior": > > \> Do the Brits use those terms? I don’t even know if British post-secondary > \> education has the same focus on four-year programs, in fact. > > No, the terms aren’t used for either high school or university in the U.K. However, just to mix more mud into the already rather gloopy waters, new university students in the UK are called ‘freshers’, which I always assumed was a short form of the word ‘freshman’. The term only generally gets applied to 1st year students in the first few months however, and thereafter you’d just refer to 1st years, 2nd years, 3rd years etc. I was lucky enough to be in the middle of my secondary education at the time of the change in the UK from referring to schools years as forms or ordinal years (eg. 1st form/year) to universal years (eg. Year 8), while I was in the 3rd form (Year 9), so feel qualified to chime in with the definitive guide to old and new schools years: NEW - OLD - AGE GROUP Primary School (divided into Infant and Junior years/schools) Reception - Infant 1st year - 4-5 Year 1 - Infant 2nd year - 5-6 Year 2 - Infant 3rd year - 6-7 Year 3 - Junior 1st year - 7-8 Year 4 - Junior 2nd year - 8-9 Year 5 - Junior 3rd Year - 9-10 Year 6 - Junior 4th Year - 10-11 Secondary School Year 7 - 1st year/form - 11-12 Year 8 - 2nd year/form - 12-13 Year 9 - 3rd year/form - 13-14 Year 10 - 4th year/form - 14-15 Year 11 - 5th year/form - 15-16 Sixth Form Year 12 - Lower 6th - 16-17 Year 13 - Upper 6th - 17-18 OB ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/38 "2009-03-30T13:42:04Z")
I’ve had the “pleasure” of going to school in the English & Welsh, Scottish and Ontario systems described above. To pick up some of the points about elementary and types of secondary schools, some districts in Ontario have both what is thought of as the conventional split between elementary (“public”) school and high school (K-8 and 9-12, respectively), _and_ variations on the middle school/junior high school. When I went to school in the 70’s, I went to a public school that was K-6, and then a middle school for 7-8, and finally a high school for 9-13 (back when Ontario still had a fifth year of secondary school). My kids, on the other hand, went to an elementary school for K-6, then a junior high school for 7-9, and now a high school for 10-12. And, while we don’t generally use the more American freshman/sophmore/junior/senior terminology, it does crop up from time to time. When I played football, for instance, we had three teams: varsity (any student), junior (third year) and senior (fourth or fifth year, the latter of which were very few football players). Until I made the connection with the U.S. college/high school terminology, I was confused by the fact that the junior football team was for older kids than the team I joined. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/39 "2009-03-30T14:00:29Z")
That’s interesting, Cerowyn. Was this in Ontario? The terms in the U.S. are “varsity” and “junior varsity.” The varsity team will be the best players, and the junior varsity team will be the not quite as good players. It depends on many things whether there’s a junior varsity team at all, including the state, the number of students in the high school, and the popularity of the sport. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217/40 "2009-03-30T15:11:33Z")
In the US, the school systems varies from state to state and district to district. There’s not going to be a universal pattern. In my schooling, in North central Ohio, the schools were: Kindergarten, starting ages 5-6; Elementary, grades 1-5; Intermediate, grades 6-8; High School, grades 9-12. Colloquially, we used terms like “fifth grade”, “ninth grade”, “eleventh grade” for the grade level. Terms like “freshman”, “junior”, etc, were used for an individual person. Cohorts were called “Class of '90”, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brits-please-explain-forms-vs-our-grades/491217.md?page=3)