# Brokeback Mountain - The Story of Two Jerks \[Open Spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 27, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241 "2008-01-27T22:23:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/101 "2008-01-30T22:08:58Z")
[QUOTE=TWDuke] And yes, I’m aware that some people actually make those arguments, but I think they’re kind of missing the point. [/QUOTE] Indeed. There is an element of destiny involved in a tragic hero’s downfall. Not destiny in the sense that a divine being has decided your fate; more that, being who you are in the place where you are, you are incapable of stopping yourself from hurtling helplessly, sometimes kicking and screaming, towards your demise. It takes an extraordinary person to resist that outcome, and Ennis was not that person. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/102 "2008-01-30T23:48:10Z")
This discussion has become so abstracted and oversimplified that it’s no longer really about _Brokeback Mountain_. First of all, if every fictional character who ever chose wrongly with good intentions was dismissed as a “jerk,” that wouldn’t leave much good reading outside of official Catholic hagiographies and political autobiographies. It’s hard to imagine why anyone would single out the simply human protagonists of BM as jerks–without starting the same kind of thread about Pip or Othello or Phillip Marlowe–without imagining that there must be some other, unstated, reason for being uncomfortable with Jack and Ennis as characters. Some of my favorite characters of all time could easily be dismissed as jerks; _King Lear, Kristen Lavransdatter, Independent People_–all these masterpieces of world literature are about jerks. In the first place. In the second place, as I was apparently completely unable to communicate in my last post–assuming anyone actually read it or put forth any effort to understand it, evidence for which is almost entirely absent from the subsequent posts–in the time and place portrayed in BM, both Jack and Ennis believed that they were doing the right thing. They were both putting forth a superhuman effort to do what was expected of them. In their world, there was really no such thing as “gay,” as a lifestyle choice. God made men straight, but some of them had unnatural urges that it was their responsibility to control, suppress, and ignore. From their learned perspective, the only time they were being “jerks” was when they gave in to those “unnatural” urges. I wish those of you who have only viewed this movie solipsistically would make an effort learn what it’s capable of teaching you: that the world is not the same place for everyone. Jack and Ennis may have lived in the same time and place as people like you, but they did not live in the same world. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/103 "2008-01-31T01:17:59Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] It’s hard to imagine why anyone would single out the simply human protagonists of BM as jerks–without starting the same kind of thread about Pip or Othello or Phillip Marlowe–without imagining that there must be some other, unstated, reason for being uncomfortable with Jack and Ennis as characters. [/QUOTE] Oh please. Thinking Jack & Ennis are jerks is no more homophobic than _not_ thinking they’re jerks is misogynistic. Nobody is saying it was a bad movie. The entire point of the thread is that the two leads are jerks. It doesn’t matter a whit if all good stories are about jerks; that’s completely irrelevant. The only question here is that Jack & Ennis are jerks. And that’s not even a question. That anyone can seriously argue that they _aren’t_ jerks is comically ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/104 "2008-01-31T01:22:06Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] Oh please. Thinking Jack & Ennis are jerks is no more homophobic than _not_ thinking they’re jerks is misogynistic. Nobody is saying it was a bad movie. The entire point of the thread is that the two leads are jerks. It doesn’t matter a whit if all good stories are about jerks; that’s completely irrelevant. The only question here is that Jack & Ennis are jerks. And that’s not even a question. That anyone can seriously argue that they _aren’t_ jerks is comically ridiculous. [/QUOTE] Again, an effort to understand might help. They aren’t jerks, unless you redefine “jerk” to mean “human.” By the standards that would label them “jerks”–this was the apparently too confusing point I was making in my previous post–everyone who ever lived besides Siddhārtha Gautama, Jesus of Nazareth, and Francis of Assissi, is a “jerk.” Repeating, more clearly I hope: Ennis and Jack are “jerks” only if jerk is defined as “a member of the human race.” ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/105 "2008-01-31T01:27:56Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] Repeating, more clearly I hope: Ennis and Jack are “jerks” only if jerk is defined as “a member of the human race.” [/QUOTE] That’s a crock of shit. You’re saying that every human who ever lived (except three) would have treated their wives just as poorly? Take off the blinders. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/106 "2008-01-31T01:38:45Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] That’s a crock of shit. You’re saying that every human who ever lived (except three) would have treated their wives just as poorly? Take off the blinders. [/QUOTE] No, I’m not saying anything that abstract and oversimplified; I’m saying YOU are saying that.. You keep wanting to reduce it to that oversimplification. I’m trying to address the actual people in the actual situation in the movie, and explain why their context makes them no more a jerk than any other average human being, and a great deal less than most. You, and others, seem to be defining “jerk,” for the purpose of this thread, as “anyone with human flaws.” I’m saying \*that \*is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/107 "2008-01-31T01:38:53Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] It is possible for a person to have very different reactions than yours to characters in a movie, and not be a jerk, insensitive, (snip) Please remember that watching a movie and reacting to characters is very subjective. [/QUOTE] reasonable people can have disagreements over interpretation of movies. IMHO, there is no one “correct” way. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/108 "2008-01-31T01:41:53Z")
[QUOTE=wring] reasonable people can have disagreements over interpretation of movies. IMHO, there is no one “correct” way. [/QUOTE] Didn’t **Dex** just say that? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/109 "2008-01-31T01:56:00Z")
Yes. I thought it was worth repeating. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/110 "2008-01-31T02:35:22Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] I agree with your description of the story in _Brokeback Mountain_, further, wanted to comment on the (sort of) current practice of being on the “down-low” among black men. If the cultural proscriptions against homosexuality are as strong as they are in general and even stronger in the black community, what does society expect some gay men to do? [/quote] Die in ignominy. ThThat’s an answer to your question, not a request. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/111 "2008-01-31T02:38:15Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] No, I’m not saying anything that abstract and oversimplified; I’m saying YOU are saying that.. [/quote] I’m not saying that at all. Don’t equate my point with a straw man of your own creation. > [@](#): > > You keep wanting to reduce it to that oversimplification. I’m trying to address the actual people in the actual situation in the movie, and explain why their context makes them no more a jerk than any other average human being, and a great deal less than most. > > You, and others, seem to be defining “jerk,” for the purpose of this thread, as “anyone with human flaws.” I’m saying \*that \*is ridiculous. Again, I’m not reducing anything to anything. I’m simply pointing out that the two leads were jerks to the women in their lives. Are you saying that every single closeted homosexual has ALWAYS and INVARIABLY been just as big of a jerk to their wife? That would be ridiculous, but with your insistence that every human in history (save three) would have done the same thing seems to imply that. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/112 "2008-01-31T03:16:55Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] I’m not saying that at all. . . . [/QUOTE] What I’m trying to get you to understand is that, in fact, you \*are \*saying that. I’m aware that you don’t understand it that way, but what I’m trying to do is to get you to understand it in a different way from how you do now. [QUOTE=Ellis Dee] . . . I’m simply pointing out that the two leads were jerks to the women in their lives. Are you saying that every single closeted homosexual has ALWAYS and INVARIABLY been just as big of a jerk to their wife? [/QUOTE] No; again, I’m saying that YOU are simplifying to that extent; you seem to refuse to see the two men as individuals. [QUOTE=Ellis Dee] That would be ridiculous, but with your insistence that every human in history (save three) would have done the same thing seems to imply that. [/QUOTE] Again, I wasn’t stating that, I was saying that your oversimplified characterization of the two men in BM as “jerks” implied that. I agree with you that it’s not true; that was my point. This movie should have given you an opportunity to see into a world that was foreign to you. Instead, simply–too simply is my main point–you saw it without any effort to rethink your own understanding of the world, and interpreted it by your own experiences and standards, without making any effort to understand the vastly different world it was trying to show you. To reduce these two men “jerks” is to vastly oversimplify their experiences, to make no effort whatsoever to understand what they were trying to live through. It’s to entirely–but _entirely_–miss the point of the movie, as well as of the story it’s based on. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/113 "2008-01-31T03:30:14Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] I’m not saying that at all. Don’t equate my point with a straw man of your own creation.Again, I’m not reducing anything to anything. I’m simply pointing out that the two leads were jerks to the women in their lives. [/QUOTE] Let’s explore that. Is that what you think the movie was about? The OP apparently does. Personally, I’d have found the movie pretty boring if it struck me as something as simple as “men being jerks.” ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/114 "2008-01-31T04:56:38Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] In the second place, as I was apparently completely unable to communicate in my last post–assuming anyone actually read it or put forth any effort to understand it, evidence for which is almost entirely absent from the subsequent posts- [/QUOTE] This would be truly hilarious read (as I heard it in my head) by Wallace Shawn. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/115 "2008-01-31T05:25:13Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] Let’s explore that. Is that what you think the movie was about? [/QUOTE] No, of course not; that would be simplistic and idiotic. As I’ve tried to explain multiple times, but it seems to have not penetrated the fog of defensiveness. Just because the movie wasn’t even remotely ABOUT two jerks doesn’t mean for a second that the two leads WEREN’T jerks. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/116 "2008-01-31T07:12:27Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] No, of course not; that would be simplistic and idiotic. As I’ve tried to explain multiple times, but it seems to have not penetrated the fog of defensiveness. [/QUOTE] This is pretty funny, considering your entire argument seems to be driven by a bizarrely defensive refusal to reconsider the gross oversimplification of “those guys were jerks.” I have, personally, rarely seen such a dog-wagging tail as your childishly defensive, fingers-in-ears mantra of, “_yeah but, whatever but, still, they’re jerks_.” Thanks for making it ultimately clear beyond any shadow of a doubt that I’ve been wasting my time. Catch, here’s my towel. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241/117 "2008-01-31T14:48:07Z")
\> BANG! BANG! \< ::: Moderator bangs head against wall for attention ::: This has already been said WAY too many times in this thread: in this forum, people are supposed to be able to disagree about art/entertainment without name-calling or disparaging the other person’s viewpoint. Let me try again in another way: in this forum, people are supposed to be able to disagree about art/entertainment without name-calling or disparaging the other person’s viewpoint. Once more: in this forum, people are supposed to be able to disagree about art/entertainment without name-calling or disparaging the other person’s viewpoint.\* And just to be even more clear: saying “You’re too thick-headed to understand what I’ve said sixteen times,” well, that’s a personal insult. Has it sunk in yet? **Lissener** and **Ellis Dee** : do you get it yet? How many fuckin’ warnings does it take in a single thread??? Apparently. more than my patience is willing to extend to. Hence, this thread is closed. \*[sub] “What I tell you three times is true.”[/sub] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brokeback-mountain-the-story-of-two-jerks-open-spoilers/435241.md?page=5)